Interview Part 3
Contents
Is this a work of the Holy Spirit? 1:54:57
Priests & Monks 2:13:21
Exorcism 2:17:56
Traditions & Religion 2:25:35
Double minded Christian 2:32:47
What should we do 2:38:26
Is this a work of the Holy Spirit?
1:54:57 Benjamin Cheah: When you talk about these... You may have heard of the old stories in the past, like speaking in tongues, being slain by the Spirit. I've also watched YouTube videos of this old phenomenon called... I think it's Toronto Blessings where people will act like animals.
1:55:20 Philip Heng: That's right.
1:55:21 Benjamin Cheah: It totally doesn't look very holy to me, especially Toronto Blessings. I think some of them maybe faked. But what do you think of this, people speaking in tongues and unusual, strange movements that they say are by God and by the Holy Spirit? And in relation to demons. I know we come from Presbyterian, we do not speak in tongues. In fact, when I was a much younger Christian, my friend asked a few of us whether you wanted to have the gift of speaking in tongues. But I'm a science person, I'm logical. I didn't want it. I didn't want something that I couldn't understand. I don't want myself to be speaking a language that I have no idea what I'm doing. I want to be in control of my own, body so I said I didn't want it, but what was your opinion on such speaking in tongues and slain by the Spirit and Toronto Blessings?
1:56:25 Philip Heng: Okay, it's very interesting. I remember when I was younger, I was told about people who speak in tongues and, of course, I was a bit apprehensive at that time. But later on in the ministry, I had come across people who speak in tongues. And usually, I will put people to the test. So I come with a tape recorder. I say, "Okay, you go ahead. Start speaking in tongues," and then the person will start to speak in tongues, I tape it, and then I pray. And so far, the people who claim to speak in tongues, a lot of them are self-deceived. When I was in India, this guy claimed to speak in tongues. But I commanded, "In Jesus' name, tell us who are you." No reaction. So finally, I said, "Okay, let's have the truth."
1:57:31 Philip Heng: See, I was in Bible school. My room-mates appeared more spiritual. So to make myself look spiritual, I practiced speaking in tongues. I learned a few phrases in a foreign language and I just repeat it like, "Mens sana in corpore sano," that kind of thing. A few other languages and... Ten, 15 minutes everyday, deceiving himself.
1:58:00 Benjamin Cheah: I know. I've read medical reports that say even fake pastors say that speaking in tongues can be trained.
1:58:09 Philip Heng: So that was one. So... I remember speaking at Victoria School. I was invited to speak to the ICF groups and I was preaching the Gospel. I knew I was getting through, the Holy Spirit was getting through and people were being convicted. And so as we come to the end, I say, "Let's all pray." And suddenly this guy goes, "Ogonono, ogonono ogonono. " Everybody opened their eyes to look at him. So the meeting was disrupted. So I went down the aisle, "Are you a Christian? You pray? If you're not Christian, we'll pray for you. Are you a Christian? You pray." So, I came in front of this guy. I said, "Lord, if this is of you, I can't stop it, but if it's not of you, let it stop." He stopped. So thank God. The others prayed to receive Christ and the others prayed for their friends.
1:59:13 Philip Heng: I was quite troubled so I spoke to the leaders of the ICF. I said, "Who is this guy? Why is he doing this?" They say, "Yeah, he's being doing this of late." So I said to myself, "Here, I'm at the climax of the Gospel rally, asking for decisions and yet, he's disrupting. Is this of God?" You know what I mean? So I don't think so. So, I find it very hard to believe that he was filled with the Spirit and all the time he's repeating the same, "Ogonono, ogono, onono"
1:59:51 Philip Heng: One day, I met three guys in another school group as a movie team. So they came to claim that they speak in tongues. So I said, "Where did you get this?" "From the church." So I said, "Okay, according to the Bible, 1 Corinthians: 14, what is the order?" I said, "According to the Bible in 1 Corinthians: 14, you must... If any men speak in unknown tongue, let it be by two, at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret." I say, "Okay now, when y'all spoke in tongues, did you speak one by one?" "No, all three of us spoke at the same time. In fact, all of us in the group spoke together at the same time." "Was there any interpretation?" "No". So I said, "This is different from what the Bible says." Bible says it can be only one at a time, must be followed by interpretation, and maximum by three. After that, it must stop." "Ours is exception." So, "You know why you don't speak in tongues? You're scared of the Holy Spirit." I say, "no". I said, "Whenever I deal with demonic cases, I know the Holy Spirit is with me, and I command people in Jesus' name and the spirit goes out." So I felt that they were three young people that were very proud and they were self-deceived, not going according to the Bible.
2:01:27 Benjamin Cheah: That is the spirit of pride in them.
2:01:29 Philip Heng: Yes. While in India, there was a young girl after I alerted them, she said, "I also speak in tongues. Can you test my tongues?" I said, "Sure." I said, "Go ahead." So I took my tape recorder and I taped it. So after an hour, I said, "Okay, in Jesus' name, you can stop now." She said, "What did I say?" I said, "You can listen. What you were doing is just (breathing noises) and you were just sighing. That's all, you're not speaking in any tongue." So I told her very carefully, "Bible is very clear. Why do people speak in tongues? Tongue speaking was given at a time when the Bible was not complete."
2:02:21 Philip Heng: Acts Chapter 2, the whole Bible was not given yet. And God gave people the ability to speak in tongues in order to convey a message from him. But with the tongue, there must be interpretation, so that he can bless the persons. If it's just a tongue and no interpretation, nobody gets blessed. Not even the guy because he doesn't know what he's talking about. Speaking in tongues is when the person speaks in a language which he has never learnt, which he doesn't understand. That is speaking in tongues. It is not someone who learned Latin and then say a few phrases in Latin or studied Tamil and say a few phrases in Tamil. That is not speaking in tongues.
2:03:15 Philip Heng: I remember one day going to a church. It was a Presbyterian Church in Malaysia. And I was supposed to preach at the Gospel rally. Then, while we were praying, some of them spoke in tongues. So I said, "You are speaking in tongues? Have you told your pastor about it?" "Oh yeah, our pastor knows about it. In fact, he also speaks in tongues." So I said, "That's unusual because this is a Presbyterian Church." So that evening, I saw the pastor. So the pastor said, "Well, I went to a certain place and I got it. And if you want it, you can have it too."
2:04:01 Benjamin Cheah: That is what my friend told me.
2:04:03 Philip Heng: Okay. So Ben, I took him up on it because I felt that if there is something from God which I don't have, I want to have it, okay? So I said, "Okay, what do I do?" He said, "Kneel down." "Okay." Say "Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah." Say "Praise the Lord", "Praise the Lord." He said, "Alternate, Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord". Say "Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-la", "ha-la-la-la-la-la." Say, "Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord". Say it faster. "Hallelujah and praise the Lord. Ha-la-la, and let go, let the tongue go." Nothing happened. So he tried on, I think probably half an hour, this, that and... Finally, "Well, maybe it'll come later." But to this day, it never came.
2:05:00 Philip Heng: The next day when I read 1 Corinthians, Chapter 12, it is very clear. 1 Corinthians, Chapter 12... Here, "Now we are the body of Christ." Verse 27, "God has said in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers. After that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." Question, are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. Are all teachers? No. Are all workers of miracles? No. Have all the gifts of healing? No. Do all speak with tongues? Obviously no. Do all interpret? No... So I take it that God has not given me the gift of tongues, but it doesn't bother me. Because the Bible tells us there are so many different gifts, 19 different gifts of the Spirit.
2:05:55 Philip Heng: And God gives us different gifts and I don't know, when I deal with a case that is demonic, I just feel I must pray until the devil gets out. So, my gift is the gift of faith. My gift is the gift of trusting the Lord to set people free, if it helps, yeah. So, although I don't have the gift of tongues, it doesn't bother me and I personally do not see the need for tongues today.
2:06:30 Philip Heng: I went to a meeting and this guy was speaking ... but later I found out this lady is not being faithful to the husband. So, doesn't make sense, no? Holy Spirit filling people who are holy, but she's not being true to the husband. I went to another meeting. We prayed and this lady was speaking in tongues, but I noticed the phrases were sort of repetitive. So, I said, "Lord, if this is of you, please let there be an interpretation." And the interpretation came almost instantly. "Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming very soon." To me, what is so spectacular about it? Bible already tells us, "Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming very soon." So, she's not telling me something spectacular, whereas in the Bible, we see speaking in tongues is for God to convey a message that is new, that must be interpreted to make sense to us. That was before the Bible was complete.
2:07:45 Philip Heng: So now, the people who speak in tongues are in a jam. Even if they speak something new and claim it to be from God, I warn them. Revelation 22 tells us, "Don't add to scriptures." If they claim to speak in tongues and it's something based on scripture, then it's not necessary. So, head I win, tail you loose. If you are speaking something from the Bible, it's not necessary. It's already in the Bible. "Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming very soon." Do something extra from the Bible, then it's dangerous. You're adding to scriptures and God warns you. So, I tell them, "Don't. Please don't spend your time trying to speak in tongues because it doesn't bless anybody."
2:08:35 Benjamin Cheah: There's something I'd like to share about tongues from a scientific point of view. They took tongues, and they tested it by linguists, and they found that it had not much of a grammar, sentence, vocabulary, nothing at all.
2:08:49 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:08:50 Benjamin Cheah: And when I look at language as something, I look at... This is from a medical point of view. I read Genesis and Adam was created. He could speak on the first day. I've come to my own conclusion that language is something that was created by God. It is unlike... We create cars and technology. Language, written pattern is created by God because I... We do examine kids. We study what is called developmental assessment. Kids automatically pick up language, grammar, vocabulary, and everything. And usually, unless we train them before five, they can only pick up one. The talented ones pick up two, alright. So, I think God created language. So, he can speak... It's a miracle. We can't train an animal to speak a language, not even the closest animal. We can say dolphins have 50 vocabulary, but that's about it. A two-year-old kid has more than 50. So, language is by God and after the Tower of Babel, the reason of splitting man into different nations, he split the languages up, and it's very difficult for us to learn a second language because the barrier God has put is still there, and so I think it's... I can't study... I have problems studying a second language.
2:10:20 Philip Heng: We all have different abilities. So, don't feel bad about it.
2:10:24 Benjamin Cheah: So, I think language is given by God. So, if God wants us to speak a different language, he can give it to us anytime like he gave Adam.
2:10:32 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:10:33 Benjamin Cheah: But like you said, I don't think we need to speak in tongues. We have the Bible as a witness at it is.
2:10:40 Philip Heng: Yeah, I don't think... In fact, why do we need to speak in tongues? It's very clear. So, you were also mentioning those Toronto Blessings thing.
2:10:53 Benjamin Cheah: I think it's the same reason. It totally looks very unholy to me.
2:10:57 Philip Heng: Yeah, in fact, when we deal with cases, demonic cases, we hear the same type of animal sounds.
2:11:06 Benjamin Cheah: Strangely I think is that animals were made to be lower than us...
2:11:09 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:11:09 Benjamin Cheah: But why do we want to imitate animals? I think it's like the devil poking fun at us.
2:11:16 Philip Heng: I think so too, and also, the thing is not... God wants us to communicate with understanding and they just make sounds. Alright, in the Bible, we do talk about Glossolalia speaking in tongues and those who just make sounds, gibberish. So, whereas we read in 1 Corinthians 14, languages. Acts Chapter 2 is languages. So, these people who tend to speak in tongues, it's not a language.
2:11:54 Benjamin Cheah: Scientifically, it's not a language.
2:11:56 Philip Heng: It's just gibberish. So, it doesn't edify and frankly speaking, my perception of the modern-day where these churches that tend to speak in tongues, a lot of times they are robbing God of his glory. Instead of praising God in a known language, "I praise you Lord. I worship you. Thank you Lord." You see, all the psalms of praise in the Bible are very clear and specific. Psalm 96, 102 and all that, "Declare his glory among the heathen for the Lord is great and greatly to be praised. Honour and majesty are before Him. Give unto the Lord the glory due unto His name." You praise God for his faithfulness, for his righteousness, for his love, for his... But when you speak in tongues and you just make clicking sounds, it's not a praise to anybody. When you praise somebody you must praise him for something known. "I thank you for your ability. I thank you for your medical knowledge. I thank you for your... " But when you doing 'glo-glo-glo click-click-click,' it's no more a praise. It's just filling time and it is just filling up time. And a lot of churches are just robbing themselves of the opportunity of praising God.
Priests & Monks
2:13:21 Benjamin Cheah: Thank you, Pastor Heng. One thing I'll ask is, when someone is under the demonic influence, do they enjoy its presence? Do they want to rid themselves of it or they want it to continue? For example, obsession, they want it to continue. They totally enjoy. But someone who's demonized. Do they want it to go away or they want to carry on with it?
2:13:51 Philip Heng: When they come to the right understanding. They think they're behaving abnormally. You see this guy that shakes his head like that. He wants to get rid of it, but how? So when he come to the... Let's say, when he come to the lapses, when the power is not strong, the evil spirits' power is not on them. They want to be quite normal, but they just can not be. So they have to be delivered and I do not know any other power except through Jesus Christ.
2:14:30 Benjamin Cheah: Priests and monks, they go into a trance-like state seeking a ghost to enter them.
2:14:36 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:14:36 Benjamin Cheah: They're asking for it. Have you spoken to them, whether do they enjoy the presence of the demon in them? And do they want this?
2:14:47 Philip Heng: I haven't spoken to a monk on that. But I have witnessed two monks when I was in Thailand. I talked to a Englishman who became a monk. I found him at ? Temple, Kim Keat Lane. So I asked him, he was a white man. I brought my students there. So I said, "What do you do as a monk?" He said, "Well... " He brought me to the outside of the temple and said, "See the platform there? On moonlit night, I'll be there sitting cross legged." "And what do you meditate on?" "We meditate on what is called a koan. A koan is a mental conundrum, that means a puzzle to the mind. Like if two hands clapping, make a sound, what is the sound made by one hand clapping? To us, in our right mind one hand clapping... "
2:15:48 Benjamin Cheah: Makes no sound.
2:15:50 Philip Heng: No sound. But they focus their mind on that. See because their mind is to kill desire. To the Buddhist, sin comes by unfulfilled, desire, disappointment. So, to have lack of disappointment is to kill desire. Have no desire. If you have no desire, you'll never be disappointed. That's what they are saying. So they spend their time killing desire. Spending their time meditating on things that don't make sense. So their mind is not on the desire. Their mind is just on koans.
2:16:40 Benjamin Cheah: Attempt to try to distract their minds.
2:16:43 Philip Heng: Distract their minds. So, I don't see it as a profitable way and it's a very selfish type of life. You're just thinking of your own good. To keep yourself away from sin. You're not thinking of helping somebody else out of their problem. So, instead of being somebody, either a labourer or anything, just to help a fellow human being out of his predicament. They just spend their time cross legged, lotus position, meditating and killing desire. Focusing their mind on koans. Well, showing that they are so... Achievers. They achieve. So they call themselves arhats and bodhisattvas. They're ready to be promoted to the next realm, but they're staying back to help other people. But how? Not in a practical way. Just in a meditating way, on things that are not coherent.
Exorcism
· Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism
· Case examples
2:17:56 Benjamin Cheah: Alright. I think I'd like to ask you a bit on exorcism now.
2:17:59 Philip Heng: Okay.
2:18:00 Benjamin Cheah: Is exorcism a correct word?
2:18:03 Philip Heng: Well, some call it deliverance ministry. Exorcism is... By definition is casting out of evil spirits by a formula. That's what it is.
2:18:21 Benjamin Cheah: Is there any formula in the Bible about casting out of spirits?
2:18:26 Philip Heng: There's no real formula in the Bible, but what we understand is only if the person receives Christ, then the spirit will go out. So that is our formula. So we tell them, "You receive Jesus Christ."
2:18:40 Benjamin Cheah: Are there different types of exorcism practised by Christian pastors? I'm not referring to Roman Catholics, they have a set formula to follow.
2:18:49 Philip Heng: Yes, that's right. They have a ritual.
2:18:52 Benjamin Cheah: Do Christian pastors have different types of exorcisms?
2:18:56 Philip Heng: I am not aware of different types of exorcism. You see, when I went to my first case, this lady, they found her on the table and all that kind of thing. So round one, I got knocked out because she changed language and I was stumped. So I lost. Round two, I went in with a senior pastor. Senior pastor prayed and she subsided. In other words, she just played dumb and we thought she was okay. The moment we left, she acted up again. So that was a dummy... She just played dead. The third round, "We'll kill your mother because you're selling the house in China," in Hainan Island.
Exorcism
· Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism
· Case examples
2:19:45 Philip Heng: So the family's succumbed to the neighbour's request, "Hey! Don't let your mother die. Why don't you just... Don't sell the house and you could have dreamed it." So from that three lessons I learned. I went to see a missionary from China, Percy Bromley. So Percy Bromley taught me. Lesson one, the devil can understand any language, you just command in Jesus' name, they are to obey. So it's not so much you trying to understand what they say. In other words, you command them to get out. Okay. So lesson one. Number two, don't let them bluff you. They can pretend to have left, but they haven't left. So command till they have left.
2:20:33 Philip Heng: Number three, don't give in to their demands. You command. They are actually robbers of people's property. Coming into the person's body and taking possession. They have no right, no legal right. So I learned from Percy Bromley. So after that we went, "In Jesus' name, we command. In Jesus' name, we command. You have no business. This person was created by Jesus. Jesus has every right to that person. You got no business here, you get out." So that is the approach we take. And so if you would ask Jesus to be your saviour, Jesus will set you free. So we see people being set free. Yeah, it's amazing.
2:21:23 Benjamin Cheah: So I guess the success rate of exorcism, it is directly related to whether the person has accepted Christ or not.
2:21:33 Philip Heng: You're right. Yeah. Whether the person wants to believe in Christ.
2:21:35 Benjamin Cheah: If the person refuses to believe, I guess, then...
2:21:38 Philip Heng: We don't even start.
2:21:40 Benjamin Cheah: You don't even start?
2:21:42 Philip Heng: Yeah. No point.
2:21:42 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
2:21:43 Philip Heng: Because if you've got idols in the house. I mean, I went to this home. Still we can only know. I think, if your son will come to faith in Christ and believe in Christ, Jesus will save you. We guarantee that. "Oh no! We can't, we can't remove the idols because you know, we're going back to China and we have to do this and that." "Fine. If you think your God can deliver them, you don't need Jesus. But if you try and it cannot work, come." So mother went to... Son went to seven temples. Mother went to 14 temples and tried, tried, tried. Finally, mother made up her mind. She wanted to come to Christ.
2:22:23 Benjamin Cheah: So a prerequisite for deliverance is the persons being possessed wants...
2:22:29 Philip Heng: Want to accept Christ.
2:22:32 Benjamin Cheah: To accept Christ. Okay.
2:22:34 Philip Heng: Once you accept Christ and the family, normally we'll go to the one in charge. If it's the child, in the Bible, notice it's the parents. If it's an adult, fine, we'll go straight to the adult. But if it's a child, we'll deal with the parents and then their parents take the step of...
2:22:52 Benjamin Cheah: Is it a very laborious process, very tiring process?
Exorcism
· Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism
· Case examples
2:22:57 Philip Heng: Well you know, it's very strange. Our longest case was 28 days, but some cases don't take that long. It is just amazing. I ask for volunteers. I don't make it compulsory, not even my co-workers. Some are not minded to do this now, ministry. So in those days, I mean, I had lady workers also who joined me. Thank God for them. I got volunteers from the church. Some are deacons, some are elders, some are members, some are members of other churches and they come to volunteer. They want to see God's power. They want to put their faith to the test, so they can. Simple condition, go and confess your sins. Be alright with God because devil will hit you if you will not. Again, join the team. Some are frontline, some are background brain and we pray for God's protection on the team, and then we just...
2:24:02 Philip Heng: This guy was karate expert. He was filled with the ? god. I don't know that name ? god. So, then we formed a circle around him and we just sing "The Name", "Blessed be the name, blessed be the name. In the name of Jesus. In the name of... " There's power in the blood of the Lamb, and he can do all his karate and all that, but cannot touch us. So this is what we saw with our own eyes that in the name of Jesus we have the victory. So, that time we just formed a circle and we sing. And okay you're tired, you go and retire and rest. But all in the frontline, fighting fit, with all this and we have all the notes.
2:24:49 Benjamin Cheah: So you think that the other person wants to receive Christ?
2:24:54 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:24:55 Benjamin Cheah: But he's still being possessed? And you bring your team there and you pray and you sing praises.
2:25:01 Philip Heng: We pray. That's right.
2:25:01 Benjamin Cheah: Okay. And you just pay for God to do His work.
2:25:04 Philip Heng: That's right. Yeah, we know the power is not in ourselves, its only the Lord that can deliver. Yeah. But people who want to come, they're free to come. The youngest so far is my son, he's 14 years old he joined us.
2:25:24 Benjamin Cheah: Your son is a missionary now in Thailand.
2:25:26 Philip Heng: Yeah. Yeah.
2:25:28 Benjamin Cheah: Rural or urban.
2:25:32 Philip Heng: He is urban.
2:25:34 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
Traditions & Religion
2:25:35 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah. I think in Singapore, we don't have many of such possession cases. That is pretty common in countries where traditional... Where traditions are strong and religion is very strong. Like India, I think the pastors are quite involved.
2:25:56 Philip Heng: Yeah. Well, put it this way. How I see it is the devil uses the religion of the country and uses those stories, uses those parables you see. Like in India, they were... Like the gods that they worship, here in the Chinese also, the monkey God, the pig God and all, so they act. In other words... What strikes me is just like when we tell children stories, and we egg out the stories, "Three Bears" and all that sort of thing.
2:26:37 Benjamin Cheah: Yes.
2:26:38 Philip Heng: So the... In demonism, the devil uses the fairy tales of the country. So, that's what people want to know. What's the difference between demonic case and a mental case? What are some of the differences? You see, a demonic case doesn't really need to sleep. Mental case, no matter how difficult, you can still sleep a few hours.
2:27:16 Benjamin Cheah: Actually, not really. We do have a lot of mental cases, not the schizophrenias, but the depression people.
2:27:22 Philip Heng: Yeah.
2:27:22 Benjamin Cheah: They sleep like about half an hour a day for the very bad cases.
2:27:26 Philip Heng: Okay, but for how many days?
2:27:28 Benjamin Cheah: For months.
2:27:30 Philip Heng: Half an hour a day?
2:27:31 Benjamin Cheah: Yes.
2:27:32 Philip Heng: Do they do a cat nap or anything else?
2:27:34 Benjamin Cheah: Probably just a cat nap, and they really want to sleep, but they just cannot. I'm talking about very, very depressed people. In fact, when you were talking about all these, and I realized a lot of people I am treating with the mental illness, they are probably between totally physical and social, 'cause these are the social problems and physical, to some level of obsession, the first level. Where we can't see any supernatural intervention, but I can see that is a bit weird because they have a lot of thoughts put into them, thoughts they don't want. Like you said, thoughts where they want to do harm to people, thoughts that harm is doing to them, and they want to get rid of these thoughts. And the other thing, in almost all mental illness except for schizophrenia, they have problems with sleeping. Most of them stay asleep an hour or two hours, but the sleep is of very poor quality. The bad ones, probably say, "I hardly slept at all. I say "If you don't sleep in the day," they say "I hardly sleep in the day." And they look totally worn out.
2:28:39 Philip Heng: Okay. We have one case. He was delivered from demonic stuff.
2:28:47 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
2:28:49 Philip Heng: Then recently he came back. The brother brought him to see me, and during the confession he mentioned that he had been buying idols to destroy them. Then when seventh month, people bring their offerings of food and all that with the idols. He would disturb them. So I asked him, "Why are you doing all this? You know, it's wrong to disturb other people's Gods and so on." Yeah, but he doesn't seem to be able to control himself. So we brought him to IMH, he stayed in. So, he claimed he could not sleep. So I prayed, I interviewed the mother again. It's okay, that's the end of my tape.
2:29:45 Philip Heng: So I somehow felt that there are still some things not dealt with even after so many years. So I said to the mother, I said "Your second son was adopted to other people. How about your first son?" The dear lady, she's 80 plus, she said, "Ah, I forgot to tell you. My first son also was adopted to another family to do the same rituals." And she said, "I'm sorry. I forgot. I clean forgot to tell you. Lord Jesus forgive me. Cleanse me." I remember all that. Prayed for the son. Perfectly okay. After that, he came out of the hospital.
2:30:40 Philip Heng: So this type of schizophrenia you say that there have been, all these things, having negative thoughts and all that. Religious past because, so long as they haven't gotten rid of idols they haven't gotten rid of rituals that they are committed to, that are heathen, somehow there is some spiritual repercussion, but the moment that was confessed. He soon came out of hospital, perfectly okay now. So, I see this again and again. Idols not gotten rid of. Adoptions not rejected. And some of them being forgotten.
2:31:24 Philip Heng: Recently, I blessed a couple. This man is an elder of a church and while we were going there, he was talking about his difficulty with food. So I mention the two cases about eating and vomiting. And I say "You know one was adopted Virgin Mary and one was adopted to a family in China to do... " And that man said, "Darling, you remember you told me before you were adopted to the Buddha and you haven't renounced," so had to be renounced. After that, okay. I went to visit a lady who was having cancer and talking about difficulty about eating and keeping food down. Anyway, we talked and I started telling some of my stories and then one of the sisters said, "We better tell our elder brother. He was also adopted to the Buddha." All these adoptions takes place when they were young and they don't know. They don't know. The older sisters know, so they reminded him. It had to be renounced. So as Christians, we need to get rid of all this linkages with religious paraphernalia, whatever contract we ever had, whatever possession, adoption.
Double minded Christian
2:32:47 Benjamin Cheah: Not just accepting Christ provided automatic cuts off from everything?
2:32:53 Philip Heng: Sometimes, it seems to be alright, but sometimes they are not properly dealt with. Let me tell you, I just came back from Thailand. All the Thais said they want to believe in Christ, but they still are not living happy Christian lives or what we call Christian lives. And I asked to check. Recently one lady came. So I said "Do you deal with horoscope?" "Yes." Palmistry?" "Yes." "Fortune telling?" "Yes." "Black magic?" "Yes." "White Magic also?" "Yes." "Have you renounced?" "No." So I said, "Bible says we get together, no. So let's pray." So after she prays, she says, "Oh, I feel so much better. All my burdens have rolled away."
2:33:40 Philip Heng: So it reminds me of prisoners who have been chained hand and feet. "I want to be a Christian", they confess one. "I'm free already." So many chains that are still not dealt with. Next week, she brought her husband. "Are you Christian?" "Yeah." "How about the idols under his bed?" So they want to be Christian outwardly, but are still linked to the past. So this is what I'm up against. A lot of people who want to be Christian in name, but reluctant to let go of the past. Some idols in the house, not repent. "They belong to my father. They belong to my grandmother. I dare not touch." So, they are under bondage still. So until they completely let go, then you see them delivered. I see that in my church. I see that in time.
2:34:44 Benjamin Cheah: Would this be like the double-mindedness in James, Chapter 4?
2:34:49 Philip Heng: Yes, actually James, Chapter 1 also, the two-souled man. That's what it is. The double-minded, the two-souled, James, Chapter 1, Verse 8: "The double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." And in Chapter 8... Chapter 4 you were talking about. Yeah, don't be double-minded. Chapter 1, Verse... Verse 8 also, purify your heart, your double-minded, same verse. Chapter 1, Verse 8 also double, two souls. Split.
2:35:34 Benjamin Cheah: And so Christian is still torn between two roles.
2:35:37 Philip Heng: Yes, having two different desires and that is sad. So the Bible says you have two souls, God will not answer your prayer because your mind is not made up about Christ.
2:35:50 Benjamin Cheah: But it's similar to the, Jesus say you cannot serve Mammon and God.
2:35:54 Philip Heng: Yes, you cannot serve God and Mammon. Ecclesiastes tell us a lot of things that people are hooked on. I mean Solomon himself tells us in Ecclesiastes Chapter 1, Verse 16, wisdom and knowledge. Chapter 2, Verse 1, pleasure. Chapter 2, Verse 3, wine. Verse 4 is great works, okay. Then Verse 7 is talking about riches and then Verse 10: "Unbridled lust. Whatever my eyes desire, I cannot back from them. I withheld not my heart from any joy", so he just want... At the end of it, Verse 17: "I hated life". Yeah, "all is vanity and vexation of spirit." Verse 18: "I hated all my labour". So we sum up now, power, popularity, property, money, sex, pleasure, all these don't satisfy.
2:37:00 Benjamin Cheah: And, I guess, all this provide avenue of obsession that the demons can play a very small part.
2:37:07 Philip Heng: Not necessary.
2:37:08 Benjamin Cheah: Not necessary, correct.
2:37:08 Philip Heng: I think, we should be careful. Not every case I think is demon inspired, some are just self...
2:37:17 Benjamin Cheah: Self, sin, the nature of sin.
2:37:18 Philip Heng: That's right. It's only demonic when they make inroads. When they've gone to horoscope, palmistry, fortune telling, black magic. Those are really... Really open the door or they get good luck charms. The tiki. The ankh, the tiki is the one with the hollow head and the ankh... The tiki and the ankh, same concept. So all these things are... Even the cross. Those who believe the cross is a protecting element is a superstition already. So demon, the devil will use all ways to deceive and to falsely accuse. So they're deceiving all, but mostly the non-Christians. Falsely accusing only the Christians, so that we will not be effective on our own.
2:38:21 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, I think just one last question.
2:38:23 Philip Heng: Go ahead.
What should we do
2:38:26 Benjamin Cheah: What should we do if we suspect there are demons involved in our lives or in someone we love like what should we do?
2:38:37 Philip Heng: Okay. Always start with yourself. Because if you don't keep clean, you cannot help somebody else. So you have to start off with yourself. You're right. We go through the Ten Commandments. Thou shall have no other gods before me. All right, are there any other gods? It doesn't have to be a literal idol. Some can be self-made. Some think themselves smarter than God. Some give themselves excuse. "Under the circumstances God knows" and then they do something bad. So they made themselves God and the adjudicator of their own lives. And it's sad because they are the examiner and mark their own papers, so all is passed. So very dangerous. So I always take them through the Ten Commandments, no other gods. Number two. Any idols. Man-made idols. Self-made idols. Idols of people's thinking. Belief in evolution, belief in... All these superstitions. All these are wrong. So need to be confessed and renounced, not to take God's name in vain or use God's name in, "Oh my gosh, oh my God." That kind of thing need to be confessed. Making promises that you don't keep, that's breaking the third commandment. Fourth commandment, Keeping God's day holy for the Lord. It's the day for rest or worship or fellowship, doing good works. Not to play golf. I know some people like to do that, but it's a day for doing good works.
2:40:19 Philip Heng: Fifthly, honour father and mother. Think well of them, speak well of them, in front of them, behind their backs, when they are alive, when they are dead. That's it. Number six. Not to kill. Now this one is very comprehensive. A lot of people don't realise this. "I didn't kill anybody." Yeah, but Jesus said if you hate, even if you hate. You didn't do anything, but you are jealous. Your intention. You did not give them due honour. Just because you don't like him you don't speak well of him, it's wrong. We have to be honest. Whether you like him or don't, he still did a good job. So give credit where credit is due. Alright. The killing part has to do with self.
2:41:06 Philip Heng: Attempted suicide, self-condemnation, hatred of self, looking down on your own self, wrong concept of yourself. Wish you were never born. Wish you were of the opposite sex. Thinking you are born in the wrong family. Thinking you are born in the wrong country. Thinking you are born in the wrong era. Thinking you are born in the wrong race or tribe. All these are self-depreciation. You're breaking the sixth commandment. You are actually telling God, "You did not make me the best that I could be." I grew up before the war. I could have hated, but I thank God. I learned to be anything and everything. I can now go to the missionary station, they serve me every day soybean, I eat soybean. If they serve me sweet potato, I eat sweet potato. I thank God for the training. I can sleep on the floor, I can sleep on the pew, I can sleep standing up.
2:42:16 Philip Heng: So we thank God for what we went through. You look carefully. God prepared Moses, 40 years in Egypt. He learned the Coptic language, he studied in the schools and educated in Egypt. He went to the desert, 40 years. He knew all the... Where the water holes were and how to survive in the desert. God prepared him for the last 40 years when he led the children of Israel out. He went to Pharaoh, "Let my people go!" He knew the Coptic procedures. And when they went out in the wilderness, he knew what to do. So he spent the first 40 years thinking he was somebody, then when he tried to save the Jew, he ran foul of the law and he became a nobody and God put him as His speaker. So self-hatred, very important once again. Alright, so people who smoke, who drink, yeah? Take drugs, overdose, tell them. All these are self-hatred. It's breaking the sixth commandment. Overeating also.
2:43:27 Benjamin Cheah: Oh yes.
2:43:27 Philip Heng: I tell them that.
2:43:28 Benjamin Cheah: A lot of my patients, they love food.
2:43:31 Philip Heng: Yeah, number seven, adultery, so nowadays a lot of... Not only adultery, homosexual, lesbians and all that kind of thing. Bestiality, some with Taylor's models and all that kind of thing. Okay, number eight, not to steal. Number nine, not to tell lies. Number 10, not to covet. All the sins start with number 10. Where your heart is, that's where your treasure is. So people break the commandments all because of covetousness. You want more money? You change to different one. You Christians cannot pray, but you cannot... Yeah, so you become a Buddhist, yeah you can. Rub the stomach of the God and you get your riches. All these are the lies of the devil. Then I take them through horoscope, palmistry, fortune telling, black magic, all this. So when I take them through all the commandments, it's just like doing a thorough...
2:44:38 Benjamin Cheah: Checklist.
2:44:39 Philip Heng: Medical check-up, yeah.
2:44:40 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
2:44:43 Philip Heng: So after that, then you help somebody else. So remember the airlines, fasten your own seatbelt, then you help the next guy. If not, then you're in trouble.
2:44:57 Benjamin Cheah: Thank you, Reverend Heng, for this very interesting conversation. Hope we have another session in the future.
2:45:05 Philip Heng: Okay. Any time.
2:45:06 Benjamin Cheah: Thank you very much.
Article created on 18 Feb 2015
Interview done on 2 Jan 2014
by Dr Benjamin Cheah
Contents
Is this a work of the Holy Spirit? 1:54:57
Priests & Monks 2:13:21
Exorcism 2:17:56
- Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism 2:19:45
- Case examples 2:22:57
Traditions & Religion 2:25:35
Double minded Christian 2:32:47
What should we do 2:38:26
Is this a work of the Holy Spirit?
1:54:57 Benjamin Cheah: When you talk about these... You may have heard of the old stories in the past, like speaking in tongues, being slain by the Spirit. I've also watched YouTube videos of this old phenomenon called... I think it's Toronto Blessings where people will act like animals.
1:55:20 Philip Heng: That's right.
1:55:21 Benjamin Cheah: It totally doesn't look very holy to me, especially Toronto Blessings. I think some of them maybe faked. But what do you think of this, people speaking in tongues and unusual, strange movements that they say are by God and by the Holy Spirit? And in relation to demons. I know we come from Presbyterian, we do not speak in tongues. In fact, when I was a much younger Christian, my friend asked a few of us whether you wanted to have the gift of speaking in tongues. But I'm a science person, I'm logical. I didn't want it. I didn't want something that I couldn't understand. I don't want myself to be speaking a language that I have no idea what I'm doing. I want to be in control of my own, body so I said I didn't want it, but what was your opinion on such speaking in tongues and slain by the Spirit and Toronto Blessings?
1:56:25 Philip Heng: Okay, it's very interesting. I remember when I was younger, I was told about people who speak in tongues and, of course, I was a bit apprehensive at that time. But later on in the ministry, I had come across people who speak in tongues. And usually, I will put people to the test. So I come with a tape recorder. I say, "Okay, you go ahead. Start speaking in tongues," and then the person will start to speak in tongues, I tape it, and then I pray. And so far, the people who claim to speak in tongues, a lot of them are self-deceived. When I was in India, this guy claimed to speak in tongues. But I commanded, "In Jesus' name, tell us who are you." No reaction. So finally, I said, "Okay, let's have the truth."
1:57:31 Philip Heng: See, I was in Bible school. My room-mates appeared more spiritual. So to make myself look spiritual, I practiced speaking in tongues. I learned a few phrases in a foreign language and I just repeat it like, "Mens sana in corpore sano," that kind of thing. A few other languages and... Ten, 15 minutes everyday, deceiving himself.
1:58:00 Benjamin Cheah: I know. I've read medical reports that say even fake pastors say that speaking in tongues can be trained.
1:58:09 Philip Heng: So that was one. So... I remember speaking at Victoria School. I was invited to speak to the ICF groups and I was preaching the Gospel. I knew I was getting through, the Holy Spirit was getting through and people were being convicted. And so as we come to the end, I say, "Let's all pray." And suddenly this guy goes, "Ogonono, ogonono ogonono. " Everybody opened their eyes to look at him. So the meeting was disrupted. So I went down the aisle, "Are you a Christian? You pray? If you're not Christian, we'll pray for you. Are you a Christian? You pray." So, I came in front of this guy. I said, "Lord, if this is of you, I can't stop it, but if it's not of you, let it stop." He stopped. So thank God. The others prayed to receive Christ and the others prayed for their friends.
1:59:13 Philip Heng: I was quite troubled so I spoke to the leaders of the ICF. I said, "Who is this guy? Why is he doing this?" They say, "Yeah, he's being doing this of late." So I said to myself, "Here, I'm at the climax of the Gospel rally, asking for decisions and yet, he's disrupting. Is this of God?" You know what I mean? So I don't think so. So, I find it very hard to believe that he was filled with the Spirit and all the time he's repeating the same, "Ogonono, ogono, onono"
1:59:51 Philip Heng: One day, I met three guys in another school group as a movie team. So they came to claim that they speak in tongues. So I said, "Where did you get this?" "From the church." So I said, "Okay, according to the Bible, 1 Corinthians: 14, what is the order?" I said, "According to the Bible in 1 Corinthians: 14, you must... If any men speak in unknown tongue, let it be by two, at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret." I say, "Okay now, when y'all spoke in tongues, did you speak one by one?" "No, all three of us spoke at the same time. In fact, all of us in the group spoke together at the same time." "Was there any interpretation?" "No". So I said, "This is different from what the Bible says." Bible says it can be only one at a time, must be followed by interpretation, and maximum by three. After that, it must stop." "Ours is exception." So, "You know why you don't speak in tongues? You're scared of the Holy Spirit." I say, "no". I said, "Whenever I deal with demonic cases, I know the Holy Spirit is with me, and I command people in Jesus' name and the spirit goes out." So I felt that they were three young people that were very proud and they were self-deceived, not going according to the Bible.
2:01:27 Benjamin Cheah: That is the spirit of pride in them.
2:01:29 Philip Heng: Yes. While in India, there was a young girl after I alerted them, she said, "I also speak in tongues. Can you test my tongues?" I said, "Sure." I said, "Go ahead." So I took my tape recorder and I taped it. So after an hour, I said, "Okay, in Jesus' name, you can stop now." She said, "What did I say?" I said, "You can listen. What you were doing is just (breathing noises) and you were just sighing. That's all, you're not speaking in any tongue." So I told her very carefully, "Bible is very clear. Why do people speak in tongues? Tongue speaking was given at a time when the Bible was not complete."
2:02:21 Philip Heng: Acts Chapter 2, the whole Bible was not given yet. And God gave people the ability to speak in tongues in order to convey a message from him. But with the tongue, there must be interpretation, so that he can bless the persons. If it's just a tongue and no interpretation, nobody gets blessed. Not even the guy because he doesn't know what he's talking about. Speaking in tongues is when the person speaks in a language which he has never learnt, which he doesn't understand. That is speaking in tongues. It is not someone who learned Latin and then say a few phrases in Latin or studied Tamil and say a few phrases in Tamil. That is not speaking in tongues.
2:03:15 Philip Heng: I remember one day going to a church. It was a Presbyterian Church in Malaysia. And I was supposed to preach at the Gospel rally. Then, while we were praying, some of them spoke in tongues. So I said, "You are speaking in tongues? Have you told your pastor about it?" "Oh yeah, our pastor knows about it. In fact, he also speaks in tongues." So I said, "That's unusual because this is a Presbyterian Church." So that evening, I saw the pastor. So the pastor said, "Well, I went to a certain place and I got it. And if you want it, you can have it too."
2:04:01 Benjamin Cheah: That is what my friend told me.
2:04:03 Philip Heng: Okay. So Ben, I took him up on it because I felt that if there is something from God which I don't have, I want to have it, okay? So I said, "Okay, what do I do?" He said, "Kneel down." "Okay." Say "Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah." Say "Praise the Lord", "Praise the Lord." He said, "Alternate, Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord". Say "Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-la", "ha-la-la-la-la-la." Say, "Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord", "Hallelujah and praise the Lord". Say it faster. "Hallelujah and praise the Lord. Ha-la-la, and let go, let the tongue go." Nothing happened. So he tried on, I think probably half an hour, this, that and... Finally, "Well, maybe it'll come later." But to this day, it never came.
2:05:00 Philip Heng: The next day when I read 1 Corinthians, Chapter 12, it is very clear. 1 Corinthians, Chapter 12... Here, "Now we are the body of Christ." Verse 27, "God has said in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers. After that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." Question, are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. Are all teachers? No. Are all workers of miracles? No. Have all the gifts of healing? No. Do all speak with tongues? Obviously no. Do all interpret? No... So I take it that God has not given me the gift of tongues, but it doesn't bother me. Because the Bible tells us there are so many different gifts, 19 different gifts of the Spirit.
2:05:55 Philip Heng: And God gives us different gifts and I don't know, when I deal with a case that is demonic, I just feel I must pray until the devil gets out. So, my gift is the gift of faith. My gift is the gift of trusting the Lord to set people free, if it helps, yeah. So, although I don't have the gift of tongues, it doesn't bother me and I personally do not see the need for tongues today.
2:06:30 Philip Heng: I went to a meeting and this guy was speaking ... but later I found out this lady is not being faithful to the husband. So, doesn't make sense, no? Holy Spirit filling people who are holy, but she's not being true to the husband. I went to another meeting. We prayed and this lady was speaking in tongues, but I noticed the phrases were sort of repetitive. So, I said, "Lord, if this is of you, please let there be an interpretation." And the interpretation came almost instantly. "Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming very soon." To me, what is so spectacular about it? Bible already tells us, "Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming very soon." So, she's not telling me something spectacular, whereas in the Bible, we see speaking in tongues is for God to convey a message that is new, that must be interpreted to make sense to us. That was before the Bible was complete.
2:07:45 Philip Heng: So now, the people who speak in tongues are in a jam. Even if they speak something new and claim it to be from God, I warn them. Revelation 22 tells us, "Don't add to scriptures." If they claim to speak in tongues and it's something based on scripture, then it's not necessary. So, head I win, tail you loose. If you are speaking something from the Bible, it's not necessary. It's already in the Bible. "Jesus is coming. Jesus is coming very soon." Do something extra from the Bible, then it's dangerous. You're adding to scriptures and God warns you. So, I tell them, "Don't. Please don't spend your time trying to speak in tongues because it doesn't bless anybody."
2:08:35 Benjamin Cheah: There's something I'd like to share about tongues from a scientific point of view. They took tongues, and they tested it by linguists, and they found that it had not much of a grammar, sentence, vocabulary, nothing at all.
2:08:49 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:08:50 Benjamin Cheah: And when I look at language as something, I look at... This is from a medical point of view. I read Genesis and Adam was created. He could speak on the first day. I've come to my own conclusion that language is something that was created by God. It is unlike... We create cars and technology. Language, written pattern is created by God because I... We do examine kids. We study what is called developmental assessment. Kids automatically pick up language, grammar, vocabulary, and everything. And usually, unless we train them before five, they can only pick up one. The talented ones pick up two, alright. So, I think God created language. So, he can speak... It's a miracle. We can't train an animal to speak a language, not even the closest animal. We can say dolphins have 50 vocabulary, but that's about it. A two-year-old kid has more than 50. So, language is by God and after the Tower of Babel, the reason of splitting man into different nations, he split the languages up, and it's very difficult for us to learn a second language because the barrier God has put is still there, and so I think it's... I can't study... I have problems studying a second language.
2:10:20 Philip Heng: We all have different abilities. So, don't feel bad about it.
2:10:24 Benjamin Cheah: So, I think language is given by God. So, if God wants us to speak a different language, he can give it to us anytime like he gave Adam.
2:10:32 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:10:33 Benjamin Cheah: But like you said, I don't think we need to speak in tongues. We have the Bible as a witness at it is.
2:10:40 Philip Heng: Yeah, I don't think... In fact, why do we need to speak in tongues? It's very clear. So, you were also mentioning those Toronto Blessings thing.
2:10:53 Benjamin Cheah: I think it's the same reason. It totally looks very unholy to me.
2:10:57 Philip Heng: Yeah, in fact, when we deal with cases, demonic cases, we hear the same type of animal sounds.
2:11:06 Benjamin Cheah: Strangely I think is that animals were made to be lower than us...
2:11:09 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:11:09 Benjamin Cheah: But why do we want to imitate animals? I think it's like the devil poking fun at us.
2:11:16 Philip Heng: I think so too, and also, the thing is not... God wants us to communicate with understanding and they just make sounds. Alright, in the Bible, we do talk about Glossolalia speaking in tongues and those who just make sounds, gibberish. So, whereas we read in 1 Corinthians 14, languages. Acts Chapter 2 is languages. So, these people who tend to speak in tongues, it's not a language.
2:11:54 Benjamin Cheah: Scientifically, it's not a language.
2:11:56 Philip Heng: It's just gibberish. So, it doesn't edify and frankly speaking, my perception of the modern-day where these churches that tend to speak in tongues, a lot of times they are robbing God of his glory. Instead of praising God in a known language, "I praise you Lord. I worship you. Thank you Lord." You see, all the psalms of praise in the Bible are very clear and specific. Psalm 96, 102 and all that, "Declare his glory among the heathen for the Lord is great and greatly to be praised. Honour and majesty are before Him. Give unto the Lord the glory due unto His name." You praise God for his faithfulness, for his righteousness, for his love, for his... But when you speak in tongues and you just make clicking sounds, it's not a praise to anybody. When you praise somebody you must praise him for something known. "I thank you for your ability. I thank you for your medical knowledge. I thank you for your... " But when you doing 'glo-glo-glo click-click-click,' it's no more a praise. It's just filling time and it is just filling up time. And a lot of churches are just robbing themselves of the opportunity of praising God.
Priests & Monks
2:13:21 Benjamin Cheah: Thank you, Pastor Heng. One thing I'll ask is, when someone is under the demonic influence, do they enjoy its presence? Do they want to rid themselves of it or they want it to continue? For example, obsession, they want it to continue. They totally enjoy. But someone who's demonized. Do they want it to go away or they want to carry on with it?
2:13:51 Philip Heng: When they come to the right understanding. They think they're behaving abnormally. You see this guy that shakes his head like that. He wants to get rid of it, but how? So when he come to the... Let's say, when he come to the lapses, when the power is not strong, the evil spirits' power is not on them. They want to be quite normal, but they just can not be. So they have to be delivered and I do not know any other power except through Jesus Christ.
2:14:30 Benjamin Cheah: Priests and monks, they go into a trance-like state seeking a ghost to enter them.
2:14:36 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:14:36 Benjamin Cheah: They're asking for it. Have you spoken to them, whether do they enjoy the presence of the demon in them? And do they want this?
2:14:47 Philip Heng: I haven't spoken to a monk on that. But I have witnessed two monks when I was in Thailand. I talked to a Englishman who became a monk. I found him at ? Temple, Kim Keat Lane. So I asked him, he was a white man. I brought my students there. So I said, "What do you do as a monk?" He said, "Well... " He brought me to the outside of the temple and said, "See the platform there? On moonlit night, I'll be there sitting cross legged." "And what do you meditate on?" "We meditate on what is called a koan. A koan is a mental conundrum, that means a puzzle to the mind. Like if two hands clapping, make a sound, what is the sound made by one hand clapping? To us, in our right mind one hand clapping... "
2:15:48 Benjamin Cheah: Makes no sound.
2:15:50 Philip Heng: No sound. But they focus their mind on that. See because their mind is to kill desire. To the Buddhist, sin comes by unfulfilled, desire, disappointment. So, to have lack of disappointment is to kill desire. Have no desire. If you have no desire, you'll never be disappointed. That's what they are saying. So they spend their time killing desire. Spending their time meditating on things that don't make sense. So their mind is not on the desire. Their mind is just on koans.
2:16:40 Benjamin Cheah: Attempt to try to distract their minds.
2:16:43 Philip Heng: Distract their minds. So, I don't see it as a profitable way and it's a very selfish type of life. You're just thinking of your own good. To keep yourself away from sin. You're not thinking of helping somebody else out of their problem. So, instead of being somebody, either a labourer or anything, just to help a fellow human being out of his predicament. They just spend their time cross legged, lotus position, meditating and killing desire. Focusing their mind on koans. Well, showing that they are so... Achievers. They achieve. So they call themselves arhats and bodhisattvas. They're ready to be promoted to the next realm, but they're staying back to help other people. But how? Not in a practical way. Just in a meditating way, on things that are not coherent.
Exorcism
· Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism
· Case examples
2:17:56 Benjamin Cheah: Alright. I think I'd like to ask you a bit on exorcism now.
2:17:59 Philip Heng: Okay.
2:18:00 Benjamin Cheah: Is exorcism a correct word?
2:18:03 Philip Heng: Well, some call it deliverance ministry. Exorcism is... By definition is casting out of evil spirits by a formula. That's what it is.
2:18:21 Benjamin Cheah: Is there any formula in the Bible about casting out of spirits?
2:18:26 Philip Heng: There's no real formula in the Bible, but what we understand is only if the person receives Christ, then the spirit will go out. So that is our formula. So we tell them, "You receive Jesus Christ."
2:18:40 Benjamin Cheah: Are there different types of exorcism practised by Christian pastors? I'm not referring to Roman Catholics, they have a set formula to follow.
2:18:49 Philip Heng: Yes, that's right. They have a ritual.
2:18:52 Benjamin Cheah: Do Christian pastors have different types of exorcisms?
2:18:56 Philip Heng: I am not aware of different types of exorcism. You see, when I went to my first case, this lady, they found her on the table and all that kind of thing. So round one, I got knocked out because she changed language and I was stumped. So I lost. Round two, I went in with a senior pastor. Senior pastor prayed and she subsided. In other words, she just played dumb and we thought she was okay. The moment we left, she acted up again. So that was a dummy... She just played dead. The third round, "We'll kill your mother because you're selling the house in China," in Hainan Island.
Exorcism
· Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism
· Case examples
2:19:45 Philip Heng: So the family's succumbed to the neighbour's request, "Hey! Don't let your mother die. Why don't you just... Don't sell the house and you could have dreamed it." So from that three lessons I learned. I went to see a missionary from China, Percy Bromley. So Percy Bromley taught me. Lesson one, the devil can understand any language, you just command in Jesus' name, they are to obey. So it's not so much you trying to understand what they say. In other words, you command them to get out. Okay. So lesson one. Number two, don't let them bluff you. They can pretend to have left, but they haven't left. So command till they have left.
2:20:33 Philip Heng: Number three, don't give in to their demands. You command. They are actually robbers of people's property. Coming into the person's body and taking possession. They have no right, no legal right. So I learned from Percy Bromley. So after that we went, "In Jesus' name, we command. In Jesus' name, we command. You have no business. This person was created by Jesus. Jesus has every right to that person. You got no business here, you get out." So that is the approach we take. And so if you would ask Jesus to be your saviour, Jesus will set you free. So we see people being set free. Yeah, it's amazing.
2:21:23 Benjamin Cheah: So I guess the success rate of exorcism, it is directly related to whether the person has accepted Christ or not.
2:21:33 Philip Heng: You're right. Yeah. Whether the person wants to believe in Christ.
2:21:35 Benjamin Cheah: If the person refuses to believe, I guess, then...
2:21:38 Philip Heng: We don't even start.
2:21:40 Benjamin Cheah: You don't even start?
2:21:42 Philip Heng: Yeah. No point.
2:21:42 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
2:21:43 Philip Heng: Because if you've got idols in the house. I mean, I went to this home. Still we can only know. I think, if your son will come to faith in Christ and believe in Christ, Jesus will save you. We guarantee that. "Oh no! We can't, we can't remove the idols because you know, we're going back to China and we have to do this and that." "Fine. If you think your God can deliver them, you don't need Jesus. But if you try and it cannot work, come." So mother went to... Son went to seven temples. Mother went to 14 temples and tried, tried, tried. Finally, mother made up her mind. She wanted to come to Christ.
2:22:23 Benjamin Cheah: So a prerequisite for deliverance is the persons being possessed wants...
2:22:29 Philip Heng: Want to accept Christ.
2:22:32 Benjamin Cheah: To accept Christ. Okay.
2:22:34 Philip Heng: Once you accept Christ and the family, normally we'll go to the one in charge. If it's the child, in the Bible, notice it's the parents. If it's an adult, fine, we'll go straight to the adult. But if it's a child, we'll deal with the parents and then their parents take the step of...
2:22:52 Benjamin Cheah: Is it a very laborious process, very tiring process?
Exorcism
· Rev Heng's lessons on exorcism
· Case examples
2:22:57 Philip Heng: Well you know, it's very strange. Our longest case was 28 days, but some cases don't take that long. It is just amazing. I ask for volunteers. I don't make it compulsory, not even my co-workers. Some are not minded to do this now, ministry. So in those days, I mean, I had lady workers also who joined me. Thank God for them. I got volunteers from the church. Some are deacons, some are elders, some are members, some are members of other churches and they come to volunteer. They want to see God's power. They want to put their faith to the test, so they can. Simple condition, go and confess your sins. Be alright with God because devil will hit you if you will not. Again, join the team. Some are frontline, some are background brain and we pray for God's protection on the team, and then we just...
2:24:02 Philip Heng: This guy was karate expert. He was filled with the ? god. I don't know that name ? god. So, then we formed a circle around him and we just sing "The Name", "Blessed be the name, blessed be the name. In the name of Jesus. In the name of... " There's power in the blood of the Lamb, and he can do all his karate and all that, but cannot touch us. So this is what we saw with our own eyes that in the name of Jesus we have the victory. So, that time we just formed a circle and we sing. And okay you're tired, you go and retire and rest. But all in the frontline, fighting fit, with all this and we have all the notes.
2:24:49 Benjamin Cheah: So you think that the other person wants to receive Christ?
2:24:54 Philip Heng: Yes.
2:24:55 Benjamin Cheah: But he's still being possessed? And you bring your team there and you pray and you sing praises.
2:25:01 Philip Heng: We pray. That's right.
2:25:01 Benjamin Cheah: Okay. And you just pay for God to do His work.
2:25:04 Philip Heng: That's right. Yeah, we know the power is not in ourselves, its only the Lord that can deliver. Yeah. But people who want to come, they're free to come. The youngest so far is my son, he's 14 years old he joined us.
2:25:24 Benjamin Cheah: Your son is a missionary now in Thailand.
2:25:26 Philip Heng: Yeah. Yeah.
2:25:28 Benjamin Cheah: Rural or urban.
2:25:32 Philip Heng: He is urban.
2:25:34 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
Traditions & Religion
2:25:35 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah. I think in Singapore, we don't have many of such possession cases. That is pretty common in countries where traditional... Where traditions are strong and religion is very strong. Like India, I think the pastors are quite involved.
2:25:56 Philip Heng: Yeah. Well, put it this way. How I see it is the devil uses the religion of the country and uses those stories, uses those parables you see. Like in India, they were... Like the gods that they worship, here in the Chinese also, the monkey God, the pig God and all, so they act. In other words... What strikes me is just like when we tell children stories, and we egg out the stories, "Three Bears" and all that sort of thing.
2:26:37 Benjamin Cheah: Yes.
2:26:38 Philip Heng: So the... In demonism, the devil uses the fairy tales of the country. So, that's what people want to know. What's the difference between demonic case and a mental case? What are some of the differences? You see, a demonic case doesn't really need to sleep. Mental case, no matter how difficult, you can still sleep a few hours.
2:27:16 Benjamin Cheah: Actually, not really. We do have a lot of mental cases, not the schizophrenias, but the depression people.
2:27:22 Philip Heng: Yeah.
2:27:22 Benjamin Cheah: They sleep like about half an hour a day for the very bad cases.
2:27:26 Philip Heng: Okay, but for how many days?
2:27:28 Benjamin Cheah: For months.
2:27:30 Philip Heng: Half an hour a day?
2:27:31 Benjamin Cheah: Yes.
2:27:32 Philip Heng: Do they do a cat nap or anything else?
2:27:34 Benjamin Cheah: Probably just a cat nap, and they really want to sleep, but they just cannot. I'm talking about very, very depressed people. In fact, when you were talking about all these, and I realized a lot of people I am treating with the mental illness, they are probably between totally physical and social, 'cause these are the social problems and physical, to some level of obsession, the first level. Where we can't see any supernatural intervention, but I can see that is a bit weird because they have a lot of thoughts put into them, thoughts they don't want. Like you said, thoughts where they want to do harm to people, thoughts that harm is doing to them, and they want to get rid of these thoughts. And the other thing, in almost all mental illness except for schizophrenia, they have problems with sleeping. Most of them stay asleep an hour or two hours, but the sleep is of very poor quality. The bad ones, probably say, "I hardly slept at all. I say "If you don't sleep in the day," they say "I hardly sleep in the day." And they look totally worn out.
2:28:39 Philip Heng: Okay. We have one case. He was delivered from demonic stuff.
2:28:47 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
2:28:49 Philip Heng: Then recently he came back. The brother brought him to see me, and during the confession he mentioned that he had been buying idols to destroy them. Then when seventh month, people bring their offerings of food and all that with the idols. He would disturb them. So I asked him, "Why are you doing all this? You know, it's wrong to disturb other people's Gods and so on." Yeah, but he doesn't seem to be able to control himself. So we brought him to IMH, he stayed in. So, he claimed he could not sleep. So I prayed, I interviewed the mother again. It's okay, that's the end of my tape.
2:29:45 Philip Heng: So I somehow felt that there are still some things not dealt with even after so many years. So I said to the mother, I said "Your second son was adopted to other people. How about your first son?" The dear lady, she's 80 plus, she said, "Ah, I forgot to tell you. My first son also was adopted to another family to do the same rituals." And she said, "I'm sorry. I forgot. I clean forgot to tell you. Lord Jesus forgive me. Cleanse me." I remember all that. Prayed for the son. Perfectly okay. After that, he came out of the hospital.
2:30:40 Philip Heng: So this type of schizophrenia you say that there have been, all these things, having negative thoughts and all that. Religious past because, so long as they haven't gotten rid of idols they haven't gotten rid of rituals that they are committed to, that are heathen, somehow there is some spiritual repercussion, but the moment that was confessed. He soon came out of hospital, perfectly okay now. So, I see this again and again. Idols not gotten rid of. Adoptions not rejected. And some of them being forgotten.
2:31:24 Philip Heng: Recently, I blessed a couple. This man is an elder of a church and while we were going there, he was talking about his difficulty with food. So I mention the two cases about eating and vomiting. And I say "You know one was adopted Virgin Mary and one was adopted to a family in China to do... " And that man said, "Darling, you remember you told me before you were adopted to the Buddha and you haven't renounced," so had to be renounced. After that, okay. I went to visit a lady who was having cancer and talking about difficulty about eating and keeping food down. Anyway, we talked and I started telling some of my stories and then one of the sisters said, "We better tell our elder brother. He was also adopted to the Buddha." All these adoptions takes place when they were young and they don't know. They don't know. The older sisters know, so they reminded him. It had to be renounced. So as Christians, we need to get rid of all this linkages with religious paraphernalia, whatever contract we ever had, whatever possession, adoption.
Double minded Christian
2:32:47 Benjamin Cheah: Not just accepting Christ provided automatic cuts off from everything?
2:32:53 Philip Heng: Sometimes, it seems to be alright, but sometimes they are not properly dealt with. Let me tell you, I just came back from Thailand. All the Thais said they want to believe in Christ, but they still are not living happy Christian lives or what we call Christian lives. And I asked to check. Recently one lady came. So I said "Do you deal with horoscope?" "Yes." Palmistry?" "Yes." "Fortune telling?" "Yes." "Black magic?" "Yes." "White Magic also?" "Yes." "Have you renounced?" "No." So I said, "Bible says we get together, no. So let's pray." So after she prays, she says, "Oh, I feel so much better. All my burdens have rolled away."
2:33:40 Philip Heng: So it reminds me of prisoners who have been chained hand and feet. "I want to be a Christian", they confess one. "I'm free already." So many chains that are still not dealt with. Next week, she brought her husband. "Are you Christian?" "Yeah." "How about the idols under his bed?" So they want to be Christian outwardly, but are still linked to the past. So this is what I'm up against. A lot of people who want to be Christian in name, but reluctant to let go of the past. Some idols in the house, not repent. "They belong to my father. They belong to my grandmother. I dare not touch." So, they are under bondage still. So until they completely let go, then you see them delivered. I see that in my church. I see that in time.
2:34:44 Benjamin Cheah: Would this be like the double-mindedness in James, Chapter 4?
2:34:49 Philip Heng: Yes, actually James, Chapter 1 also, the two-souled man. That's what it is. The double-minded, the two-souled, James, Chapter 1, Verse 8: "The double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." And in Chapter 8... Chapter 4 you were talking about. Yeah, don't be double-minded. Chapter 1, Verse... Verse 8 also, purify your heart, your double-minded, same verse. Chapter 1, Verse 8 also double, two souls. Split.
2:35:34 Benjamin Cheah: And so Christian is still torn between two roles.
2:35:37 Philip Heng: Yes, having two different desires and that is sad. So the Bible says you have two souls, God will not answer your prayer because your mind is not made up about Christ.
2:35:50 Benjamin Cheah: But it's similar to the, Jesus say you cannot serve Mammon and God.
2:35:54 Philip Heng: Yes, you cannot serve God and Mammon. Ecclesiastes tell us a lot of things that people are hooked on. I mean Solomon himself tells us in Ecclesiastes Chapter 1, Verse 16, wisdom and knowledge. Chapter 2, Verse 1, pleasure. Chapter 2, Verse 3, wine. Verse 4 is great works, okay. Then Verse 7 is talking about riches and then Verse 10: "Unbridled lust. Whatever my eyes desire, I cannot back from them. I withheld not my heart from any joy", so he just want... At the end of it, Verse 17: "I hated life". Yeah, "all is vanity and vexation of spirit." Verse 18: "I hated all my labour". So we sum up now, power, popularity, property, money, sex, pleasure, all these don't satisfy.
2:37:00 Benjamin Cheah: And, I guess, all this provide avenue of obsession that the demons can play a very small part.
2:37:07 Philip Heng: Not necessary.
2:37:08 Benjamin Cheah: Not necessary, correct.
2:37:08 Philip Heng: I think, we should be careful. Not every case I think is demon inspired, some are just self...
2:37:17 Benjamin Cheah: Self, sin, the nature of sin.
2:37:18 Philip Heng: That's right. It's only demonic when they make inroads. When they've gone to horoscope, palmistry, fortune telling, black magic. Those are really... Really open the door or they get good luck charms. The tiki. The ankh, the tiki is the one with the hollow head and the ankh... The tiki and the ankh, same concept. So all these things are... Even the cross. Those who believe the cross is a protecting element is a superstition already. So demon, the devil will use all ways to deceive and to falsely accuse. So they're deceiving all, but mostly the non-Christians. Falsely accusing only the Christians, so that we will not be effective on our own.
2:38:21 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, I think just one last question.
2:38:23 Philip Heng: Go ahead.
What should we do
2:38:26 Benjamin Cheah: What should we do if we suspect there are demons involved in our lives or in someone we love like what should we do?
2:38:37 Philip Heng: Okay. Always start with yourself. Because if you don't keep clean, you cannot help somebody else. So you have to start off with yourself. You're right. We go through the Ten Commandments. Thou shall have no other gods before me. All right, are there any other gods? It doesn't have to be a literal idol. Some can be self-made. Some think themselves smarter than God. Some give themselves excuse. "Under the circumstances God knows" and then they do something bad. So they made themselves God and the adjudicator of their own lives. And it's sad because they are the examiner and mark their own papers, so all is passed. So very dangerous. So I always take them through the Ten Commandments, no other gods. Number two. Any idols. Man-made idols. Self-made idols. Idols of people's thinking. Belief in evolution, belief in... All these superstitions. All these are wrong. So need to be confessed and renounced, not to take God's name in vain or use God's name in, "Oh my gosh, oh my God." That kind of thing need to be confessed. Making promises that you don't keep, that's breaking the third commandment. Fourth commandment, Keeping God's day holy for the Lord. It's the day for rest or worship or fellowship, doing good works. Not to play golf. I know some people like to do that, but it's a day for doing good works.
2:40:19 Philip Heng: Fifthly, honour father and mother. Think well of them, speak well of them, in front of them, behind their backs, when they are alive, when they are dead. That's it. Number six. Not to kill. Now this one is very comprehensive. A lot of people don't realise this. "I didn't kill anybody." Yeah, but Jesus said if you hate, even if you hate. You didn't do anything, but you are jealous. Your intention. You did not give them due honour. Just because you don't like him you don't speak well of him, it's wrong. We have to be honest. Whether you like him or don't, he still did a good job. So give credit where credit is due. Alright. The killing part has to do with self.
2:41:06 Philip Heng: Attempted suicide, self-condemnation, hatred of self, looking down on your own self, wrong concept of yourself. Wish you were never born. Wish you were of the opposite sex. Thinking you are born in the wrong family. Thinking you are born in the wrong country. Thinking you are born in the wrong era. Thinking you are born in the wrong race or tribe. All these are self-depreciation. You're breaking the sixth commandment. You are actually telling God, "You did not make me the best that I could be." I grew up before the war. I could have hated, but I thank God. I learned to be anything and everything. I can now go to the missionary station, they serve me every day soybean, I eat soybean. If they serve me sweet potato, I eat sweet potato. I thank God for the training. I can sleep on the floor, I can sleep on the pew, I can sleep standing up.
2:42:16 Philip Heng: So we thank God for what we went through. You look carefully. God prepared Moses, 40 years in Egypt. He learned the Coptic language, he studied in the schools and educated in Egypt. He went to the desert, 40 years. He knew all the... Where the water holes were and how to survive in the desert. God prepared him for the last 40 years when he led the children of Israel out. He went to Pharaoh, "Let my people go!" He knew the Coptic procedures. And when they went out in the wilderness, he knew what to do. So he spent the first 40 years thinking he was somebody, then when he tried to save the Jew, he ran foul of the law and he became a nobody and God put him as His speaker. So self-hatred, very important once again. Alright, so people who smoke, who drink, yeah? Take drugs, overdose, tell them. All these are self-hatred. It's breaking the sixth commandment. Overeating also.
2:43:27 Benjamin Cheah: Oh yes.
2:43:27 Philip Heng: I tell them that.
2:43:28 Benjamin Cheah: A lot of my patients, they love food.
2:43:31 Philip Heng: Yeah, number seven, adultery, so nowadays a lot of... Not only adultery, homosexual, lesbians and all that kind of thing. Bestiality, some with Taylor's models and all that kind of thing. Okay, number eight, not to steal. Number nine, not to tell lies. Number 10, not to covet. All the sins start with number 10. Where your heart is, that's where your treasure is. So people break the commandments all because of covetousness. You want more money? You change to different one. You Christians cannot pray, but you cannot... Yeah, so you become a Buddhist, yeah you can. Rub the stomach of the God and you get your riches. All these are the lies of the devil. Then I take them through horoscope, palmistry, fortune telling, black magic, all this. So when I take them through all the commandments, it's just like doing a thorough...
2:44:38 Benjamin Cheah: Checklist.
2:44:39 Philip Heng: Medical check-up, yeah.
2:44:40 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
2:44:43 Philip Heng: So after that, then you help somebody else. So remember the airlines, fasten your own seatbelt, then you help the next guy. If not, then you're in trouble.
2:44:57 Benjamin Cheah: Thank you, Reverend Heng, for this very interesting conversation. Hope we have another session in the future.
2:45:05 Philip Heng: Okay. Any time.
2:45:06 Benjamin Cheah: Thank you very much.
Article created on 18 Feb 2015
Interview done on 2 Jan 2014
by Dr Benjamin Cheah