Interview Part 1
Contents
What are demons 0:00:28
· Satan 0:01:51
· Fallen Angels 0:05:28
· Demon's motives 0:08:00
· Spread of demons 0:12:43
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons 0:14:3
· demon talking to humans 0:18:33
· The occult 0:21:33
· Idolatry 0:25:45
How do demons torment humans 0:32:42
Alcohol 0:34:46
Introduction
0:00:05 Benjamin Cheah: Hi, I'm Benjamin of biblebasedmedicine.com. Today's a special day as I will be doing a live interview. I have with me Reverend Philip Heng. Reverend Heng has been pastoring for... How many years, Reverend?
0:00:19 Philip Heng: Fifty years.
0:00:20 Benjamin Cheah: Fifty years. His wife is a medical doctor. He has three children and...
0:00:25 Philip Heng: Three grandchildren.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:00:28 Benjamin Cheah: Reverend Heng has a wealth of experience in spiritual welfare. Our topic today is on demons and mental health. There'll be a dialogue and a learning session from Reverend Heng. Okay, I think to begin with, we will start with some basics of demon theology. Reverend Heng, can you tell us in simple terms, what are demons?
0:00:52 Philip Heng: Demons are actually angels that have fallen. They have fallen together with Lucifer and are on the opposite side of God's army. We see that very clearly in Isaiah, Chapter 14. In Isaiah, Chapter 14, Verse 12: "How are you fallen from heaven Lucifer, son of the morning? How are you cut down to the ground which did weaken the nations? For you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, the angels of God. I'll sit up on the mount of the congregation in the sights of the north... '" "'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'"
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:01:51 Philip Heng: Here we see the fall of Satan, God had made him as an outstanding chief of his angels. We read that in Ezekiel 28, about how he was the anointed Cherub. Ezekiel 28:14 and verse 15: "He was perfect in his ways from the day he was created until iniquity was found in him." And Verse 17 tells us, "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness."
0:02:31 Philip Heng: So here was an angel who was right there in the Garden of Eden, Verse 13, in the Eden of God. And he, instead of being a messenger of God... That's what an angel is, an angel is supposed to be a messenger of God. But Lucifer whose name means "Light-bearer", it's a good name, beautiful name, son of the morning. But instead of being a worker for God, he wanted to be equal to the master, so in Isaiah 14, five times he said, "I will". So self-will, ambition and pride, very easy to remember. SAP; self-will, ambition, and pride. "I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne, I will sit on the mount on the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." And it is said, when Lucifer... Instead of being just a worker for God, decided to be equal to God, that was his downfall.
0:03:44 Philip Heng: So because of that, the Bible tells us he was cast out. Revelation 12 talks about that, and we see how in the book of Revelation 12 Verse 7: "There was war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought with his angels and prevailed not. Neither was their place found anymore in heaven. The great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called the devil, and Satan was deceived the whole world. He was cast out into the Earth and his angels were cast out with him." So Satan fell and God cast him out of heaven. In other words, he was no more a resident. However, we find he does still have access to get to heaven as in the case of Job, how he came to accuse Job in front of God. So here in Revelation 12, he is called 'the Deceiver' in Verse 9: "He's deceiving the whole world". And Verse 10: "He's called 'the Accuser of the Brethren'.: So these two main... Two-pronged attack. For the non-believers, deceive them. For the believers, he accuses them, so as to make them not effective for God. But his modus operandi is to deceive.
0:05:20 Benjamin Cheah: I see. Demons are also previously angels and so they are of a spirit nature without any bodies.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:05:28 Philip Heng: : That's right. Correct. So we read that one-third of them fell in Revelation, Chapter 12, Verse 4: "His tail drew one-third of the stars of heaven", so we believe that one-third of the angelic hosts fell together with Lucifer. So two-thirds remained true to God, and then one-third fell following Lucifer, who's now called Satan.
0:05:58 Benjamin Cheah: Demons also have a hierarchy structure.
0:06:00 Philip Heng: Yes, we read about that in Ephesians, Chapter 6, and also Colossians. In Colossians, we read that they are called 'principalities' and 'powers'. In Colossians, Chapter 1, Verse 16: "For by Him were all things created by Jesus Christ that were in heaven, that were in Earth, visible, invisible. Whether they be thrones, dominions, principalities or powers." So we see these are different ranks of angels. Yeah, all things were created by Him and for Him. And in Ephesians 6, we see the same thing, in Chapter 6 Verse 12: "We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." So we see the ranks of the different angels. Yes.
0:07:06 Benjamin Cheah: Are there many, many demons? I've read some articles that said they are probably as many demons as there are humans on earth, billions of them.
0:07:16 Philip Heng: We don't really know. All we know is in Revelation, Chapter 5. There we read about when we get to heaven, and here's the worship of God in heaven, Chapters 4 and 5. In Chapter 5 Verse 11: "I beheld, I heard the voice of many angels about the throne and the beast and the elders and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands." So the word that he's used is myriads, many. I mean so, millions and millions of them, uncountable.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:08:00 Benjamin Cheah: What are demons' motives? What do they want?
0:08:04 Philip Heng: Alright. I think they all fall in line with Satan's motive. Satan's motive, as we see in Isaiah 14, he wants to be like God. So when we look at God's purpose for creating the universe, it is for people to worship Him, Isaiah 43. And for people to have fellowship with Him. For God's purpose is that we would worship Him and have fellowship with Him. And Satan wants exactly the same thing. So he wants to be worshipped and he wants to have fellowship with those who have been beguiled by him.
0:08:48 Benjamin Cheah: So Satan wants us to worship him?
0:08:50 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:08:51 Benjamin Cheah: He also wants Jesus to worship him.
0:08:53 Philip Heng: Correct, yeah. That's exactly. So in Matthew, Chapter 4, we see that happening where... We see Satan wanted very much everybody to worship him just like God wants everyone to worship him. And can you imagine here is the angel who was made by God telling Jesus, "Will you come and worship me?" And you are the son of God. And Matthew, Chapter 4, Verse 8: The devil takes Jesus up to a exceeding high mountain, showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them and he said, "All these things will I give you if you will fall down and worship me." So that is exactly what he wants. He wants worship. And imagine, here is a creature telling the Creator, "If you will fall down and worship me, I will give you all the glories of the kingdoms of the Earth." I mean this is really a mockery of... Here is an angel telling the Creator, "If you worship me, I'll give you all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them." Imagine the cheek of a created being telling the Creator, it's really crazy. And Jesus tells him straight on "Get thee behind me, Satan. It is written", what are you gonna do? "You are to worship the Lord and him only shall thou serve." So our God given purpose as humans on Earth is to worship God, serve the Lord and have fellowship with the Lord.
0:10:42 Benjamin Cheah: I find that this sinful nature has also created many men to want to worship from other people.
0:10:49 Philip Heng: Well, see the Bible tells us Satan has blinded the eyes of those who don't want to believe. So in 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4. I mean why do people... I mean a lot of intelligent people, well endowed with wisdom, but you see the Bible tells us in 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4, Verse 3: "If our Gospel is hid, it is hid to those who are lost, in whom the God of this world... " 'The God of this world refers to Satan'. Because God had commanded Adam and Eve to take charge, commanded Adam basically, "You are to have dominion over the Earth". But then when he capitulated before Satan, so Satan takes over and so he's called the God of this world. So he has blinded the minds of those who don't want to believe. So when people don't want to believe it suits the devil just fine. The Bible says, "The devil blinds the eyes of them lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." So it is both.
0:12:05 Philip Heng: Our relationship with God is a two-way relationship. Likewise, the people who want to relate to Satan is a two-way relationship. Satan cannot just jump on a guy and say, "Hey, you follow me." He cannot. It is Satan trying to beguile him and then the person will say, "Okay, I choose you," in the same way as believing in God, in Christ. God doesn't grab hold of you and say, "You've got to believe in me." No. It is, "I present you the truth. It is up to you whether you want to believe." So, it's a two-way street. It is a mutual relationship.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:12:43 Benjamin Cheah: How widespread is the problem of demons?
0:12:47 Philip Heng: How widespread? I think it's all over the world. I mean, that's what we see in the Book of Job. We see very clearly Satan tell us his domain or his realm of activity. Well, we see here in the Book of Job. "One day", we read in Chapter 1, Verse 6, "There was a day when the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. Satan came among them, and the Lord said to Satan, 'Where are you from?' And Satan answered the Lord, "From going to and fro in the Earth and from walking up and down in it.'" So, we see that Satan has access to God in heaven, and he comes down to the Earth and he goes to and fro upon the Earth walking up and down in it.
0:13:35 Philip Heng: So, it's interesting that he only functions and his peregrinations... That means his movements are on the Earth, around the Earth. Sometimes, we wish he would go to Pluto, far away and leave us all alone, but this is where God put human life. That's why we believe that life is only in this planet, Earth. And it's where Satan comes to deceive the people and that's where the Lord Jesus came to die for the people, it's on this Earth. God did not send Jesus to some other planet, and neither did Satan choose to go to other planets.
0:14:21 Benjamin Cheah: When you tell me of this, I am reminded of what Jesus said. Yeah. He's a good shepherd. We are the sheep, and Satan's the roaring lion frequently prowling around.
0:14:29 Philip Heng: That's right.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:14:31 Benjamin Cheah: But I find that most people cannot feel the presence of this demonic activity. I mean as a doctor, I think of this hypothesis.
0:14:42 Philip Heng: Yeah.
0:14:42 Benjamin Cheah: I'll just talk about it, if you think that it's true.
0:14:46 Philip Heng: Yeah.
0:14:47 Benjamin Cheah: I think as human, we have two parts, physical body and the spirit. Genesis 2 clearly explains this concept. Our physical body experiences a physical world through our five senses and through our intellect. But our human spirit is not very sensitive to the spiritual world. What I think is because of sin and partly God dulled our spiritual sense after Adam's sin, which I think is a good thing. Adam could relate to God. God was a spirit probably interacting with Adam in the Garden of Eden. But after Adam sinned, he could not directly contact God any more because God is holy. I was thinking why we can't sense the demon activity because God has dulled our spiritual sense, because if we still had acute spiritual sense, we would be interacting with demons instead.
0:15:49 Philip Heng: Well, we are actually either bi-partite or tri-partite. We are either body and soul, or body, soul and spirit. Some believe in body and soul, but I believe in body and soul and spirit because that's what the Bible talks about in 1 Thessalonians. Paul talks about how God will protect your body, soul and spirit, blameless till the day of Jesus Christ. So in 1 Thessalonians, yeah... Chapter 5, Verse 23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you holy and I pray God that your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ." So, actually, every human is three parts.
0:16:54 Philip Heng: We have a body which we can see and touch and feel which makes us object conscious or world conscious, and we have a soul which makes us conscious of other human beings. We look at them. We smile at them. We talk to them, we relate to them, but the Bible talks about the spiritual aspect which is non-tangible to us, but it is very conscious. It's just like talking over the phone. When you talk over the phone to your son or to your friend, you don't see him. You don't touch him. You don't feel him, but you hear him and you communicate over the phone. It is soul and soul. But when you are in dire difficulty, especially during the war. Someone is sitting in the foxhole amongst the soldiers, there's no atheist because all of them are crying out, "Oh God, whoever you are help me." Well, that's the spirit wanting to relate to God. So we have these three parts of our personality; body, soul and spirit. So we are not so conscious of the spiritual world because after the fall of Adam, the spiritual aspects are dulled.
0:18:27 Benjamin Cheah: I think it's good because, if not, we'll be conversing with the devil instead all the time.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:18:33 Philip Heng: Well, see the devil will try to converse with us and we've got to be very careful. I think a lot of people are not conscious of it, but the Bible warns us, especially when we get angry. In Ephesians, Chapter 4, this is actually a good reminder to people including Christians, believers, because when we get angry, the Bible tells us we say things and we do things which are not rational. We go beyond our rationale and a lot of times, people in a fit of anger, in a moment of anger, in a split second, they do a stupid thing and they destroy themselves or they destroy others and it's not just their anger. The Bible tells us very clearly in Ephesians, Chapter 4, Verse 26: "Be angry, but don't sin in your anger." In other words there are some things called righteous anger, but there are some things called anger which is not righteous.
0:19:36 Philip Heng: Righteous anger is when we do something according to God's will. We see a robber grabbing the bag from an old lady. You get angry with the robber and you go out to him, you try to grab him. That's okay. That's righteous anger. You're angry with the robber for doing something wrong against an old lady. But a lot of times, we get angry with others, it's based on ourselves, it's based on our own self standard. When parents get angry and say to the child, "You're not clever. You're stupid," and then they do something in their anger. Or somebody who's angry with his friend or even husbands against wives. In the fit of anger, the mind shuts off and the devil can put thoughts in. And I just want to say this, this is very real, why? It happened to me and then I realized how real that verse is in the Bible. Don't give place to the devil, because when you get angry, the devil is able to put thoughts into your head which are not your own. It is very frightening.
0:20:50 Benjamin Cheah: I guess it's the same way the Holy Spirit prompts us...
0:20:54 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:20:54 Benjamin Cheah: And our spirit...
0:20:54 Philip Heng: Yes, very true.
0:20:55 Benjamin Cheah: When we started to meditate on him. I do find that some people are spiritually more sensitive to the spirit side compared to other Christians. Is it something that they have? Do you agree that some people are a bit more sensitive, like someone is more sensitive to smells, some people are more sensitive to sight, some people can understand maths and science, some people can understand arts, some people are just very sensitive to the spirit side and they tend to experience these things more... These demonic things more.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:21:33 Philip Heng: Yes. It's a matter of choice and experience. The people I deal with, some who grew up in non-Christian background, they see the medium in a trance, exposure to that from an early age, and so they are very sensitive to spiritual things. But the devil goes after people who like to play with him. See the Bible talks about, "Don't mess around with horoscope, palmistry, fortune telling, black magic, white magic." All this is clearly warned. God gives clear warning. In Deuteronomy 18, Verse 9: "When you have come into the world, into the land." God told the Children of Israel, "When you have come to the land which the Lord gives you, don't learn to do the abominations of the nations, the heathen." What do they do? The Bible says, "There shall not be found among you anyone that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire." In those days, the heathen nations, they offered their children as burnt offerings, sacrifices to the heathen Gods, Moloch or Molech.
0:22:52 Philip Heng: So, God said, "You are my chosen people. Don't do that. Don't make a sacrifice of your son through an oblation, through a fire sacrifice to a heathen God, to an idol or that uses divination." That means fortune telling. Many kinds of fortune telling. They're using arrows, they use the hepatoscopy, using the liver. They will cut the liver and then... It's just a lot of, "Oh, this blotch means this. That blotch means that." Or people trying to... What do you call, palmistry. "This line means length of life. That line means whatever." They come up with all kinds of supposition and it suits the devil just fine, because whatever is not based on truth, the devil would like to come in and take advantage of that. So, they will shoot arrows, belomancy, hepatoscopy, and liver, so many things, just as the Chinese one. They throw coins and that kind of thing.
0:24:09 Philip Heng: So God says, "Don't do this kind of divination." An observer of times, horoscope. Or an enchanter, those who cast spells. Or a witch, those that control spirits. A witch is a female that controls evil. They can put charms either of wood. The charms can be using wood, and it can be using the tusk of wild boar or some pig or wild pig. So they use animal parts, animal organs to try to use it as an object of protection or an object to... Well, to go against another person.
0:25:01 Philip Heng: So the Bible warns it, "Avoid familiar spirits". And those who are wizards, or those who control spirits. Or a necromancer, those who deal with the spirits of the dead. The Bible tells us the spirits of the dead, they have actually either gone to heaven or to hell. But the evil spirits, the demons, like to act the part of somebody who has departed in order to beguile those who are... Yeah, those who worship Satan or are susceptible to him.
0:25:33 Benjamin Cheah: I think what you have just described, idolatry and the occult, are ways that invite the demons to come and get involved in our lives.
0:25:44 Philip Heng: Yes.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:25:45 Benjamin Cheah: Otherwise, it's actually something, God has put a barrier between the demon and us. By doing such things, we are inviting a spirit side of our lives to be opened up. Are there other ways, for example, like drinking alcohol, addiction to sex, to gambling; does it open ourselves to the demonic side as well?
0:26:08 Philip Heng: Yeah. Okay. You see, what you just touched on. I know this is a sensitive part, but idolatry. A lot of people think that idolatry is real to them, but what is really idolatry? Can that object, the physical object, whether it be wood, or stone, or paper, or an animal organ; can it really have that kind of power? Where does the power come from? The Bible is very clear. And there are people who when upon hearing what I say, you want to read that for yourself.
0:26:48 Philip Heng: In 1 Corinthians, Chapter 10, the apostle Paul is trying to make it clear to us, Verse 19: "What do I say then? Is the idol anything or that which is offered and sacrificed to idol, is it anything? But I say that the things which the Gentiles' sacrifice, the non-believers, the non-Christian sacrifice, they're actually sacrificing to demonic spirits and not to God." In other words, upfront, it looks like the idol, but behind it is the evil spirit.
0:27:26 Philip Heng: So think carefully. We speak this out of love for you. If you happen to be an idolater, think carefully. Because I have dealt with many idolaters and I feel sad for them. I used to live at the church in Gilstead Road and behind was low-lying, especially during the rainy season December to February, when the monsoon strikes and the floods come, people are reluctant to leave. It is sad. Because when the floods come, the idols get affected. So be careful. Think carefully about who you really are worshipping and whether it can help you in a time of crisis. Alright, as to those who are being afflicted by demonic forces. You have mentioned those who indulge in sex and...
0:28:30 Benjamin Cheah: Forms of addiction.
0:28:31 Philip Heng: Forms of addiction. Okay. The Bible tells us that sex is a God-given thing. It is something which is honourable between husband and wife. In others, if sex is done with the right person, male and female, to whom they are committed one to another in bonds of marriage and at the right time. At the right time, with the right person, with the right relationship of marriage, it is honourable and perfectly in order. But it is illicit sex that is not legal and not according to God's word. That is where the judgement and curse of God comes. It's an abomination. Bible warns against bestiality, having sex with animals. I was shocked when I first read this as a young fellow. "Oh, people do that?"
0:29:39 Philip Heng: But then, as you grow up you realize, yes, there are people who do that. And so, we want to be very careful. In Leviticus 18, it tells us the relationships that we cannot have. Incest, relationships within certain close marital relationships or familial relationships is not allowed. God says it's not allowed. It's strange that later on medical science finds it out. Haemophilia coming down through the royal families because of their close ties in marriage. And then the Bible warns us, Leviticus 18, "Don't lie with... " Well, Verse 21: "Those who pass their seed through the fire to Molech." And Verse 22: "Those who lie with mankind as with womankind." This homosexuality, lesbianism, it's all clearly forbidden in God's word. God knows it's wrong. God had said to Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful and multiply." In homosexuality, how to be fruitful and multiply?
0:30:57 Philip Heng: I sometimes feel so sad. Man is supposed to be the wisest of God's creation, the highest. Yes, next to the angels. Psalm 8 tells us very clearly. Next to the angels, we are the highest of God's creation. And yet, we find man is the one that tries to marry another man, woman with woman, men and men, which is wrong. Psalm 8 tells us, "You have made men a little lower than the angels." Yes, angels are higher than men. Stronger, wiser. Man is a bit lower. And then after that, are the animals. But we find that man is making decisions worse than the animals.
0:31:41 Philip Heng: So, Bible warns against them. In Leviticus 18, "Don't lie with mankind as with womankind." It's abomination. It is very offensive to God. Don't lie with them, beast to defile yourself. Neither shall any man stand before a beast to lie with it. It is confusion. So, man cannot lie with animals, neither should woman lie with animals. So, God clearly tells us all these. So, when you say that they go and do this because... Not that they are drunk and then they do it. A lot of times, I think they voluntarily go do it. And they know it's wrong, but they just want to try. So, it's a choice to begin with. But then once they get into it, it becomes an addiction. They cannot stop. I go to Thailand, I see some of these cases. So I feel very sad for them.
How do demons torment humans ?
0:32:42 Benjamin Cheah: Okay. In what ways do demons torment humans? I've thought about three ways. One, they can torment us through temptation. The other is through an accusation and through deception. Maybe, I'll talk about what I think. So temptation, I think every normal believer can be tempted. And then, James, Chapter 4, tells us how to deal with this temptation. It says, "To submit ourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts. You double-minded." I think the word 'double-minded' is quite important here.
0:33:30 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:33:34 Benjamin Cheah: I think there are a lot of Christians on the outward. They go to church. They serve, but there's a double-mind to it. At the same time, they are involved in, maybe alcohol in some countries. Some are involved in sex or pornography and some are given in to anger. They were telling us. I've seen many cases of anger resulting in family violence, resulting in irrational behaviour, which my patients tell me they wonder why they do this all the time. And I think, all these things of the double-mindedness cause the demons to come and influence even up to Christians.
0:34:24 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:34:24 Benjamin Cheah: So, it's kind of strange, I could say. At one hand, the Christian is doing well spiritually on the outside, but he has a double side to him on the other side. And this invites the demons or unhealthy spiritual influences.
Alcohol
0:34:46 Philip Heng: Yeah, okay. I think, I want to be very clear here. Not every drunk is demonized.
0:34:54 Benjamin Cheah: Correct.
0:34:55 Philip Heng: Yeah. In other words...
0:34:56 Benjamin Cheah: The physical aspect, the chemical aspect of alcohol will cause a person to lose his self-control. It can bring up violence. I've seen it many times. But I think in some cases, it connects this person to the other side.
0:35:13 Philip Heng: Yes, but not always.
0:35:14 Benjamin Cheah: It opens up, just like occult.
0:35:16 Philip Heng: Yes. I think... You see, wine, the Bible doesn't totally forbid wine. You know? Wine is good as a medicine. Paul tells Timothy, "Take a little wine, it's good for your stomach's sake". In 1 Timothy, apparently Timothy had some stomach problem. At first Timothy, Chapter 5, Verse 23: "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and for your often infirmities." So, there is medicinal value in wine. Yeah?
0:36:00 Philip Heng: And wine is able to take away the inhibition and let the people enjoy the party a little bit. But of course there's a consequence and they usually have a hangover the day after. So, the psalmist who wrote tells us very clearly that wine should be held in the right perspective. You don't want to drink so much that you get... In Proverbs, Chapter 23, Verse 29: "Who's the one that has woe? Who's the one that has sorrow? Who's the one that has contentions and argument? Who's the one that has babbling and has wounds without cause and redness of the eyes?"
0:36:55 Philip Heng: Now, Verse 30 tells us, "Those who tarry long at the wine." In other words, take the wine again and again, and they that go seek mixed wine. A little is okay, but when they keep at it, then it's dangerous. Verse 31 says, "Don't look upon the wine when it is red, when it gives it's color to the cup. Then when it moves itself alright, it will bite like a serpent and sting like a snake, an asp. Your eyes will behold strange women and your heart will utter perverse things."
0:37:28 Philip Heng: So when a person takes more and more liquor, there is less and less control of himself. And then he will be in a very sad state. Verse 34 tells us, "He's like one that lies down in the middle of the ocean and that lies upon the top of the mast." He's not sure where he is. Either at the bottom of the sea or on the top of the mast in the boat. "And they struck me, but I was not sick. They have beaten me and I did not feel any pain. And when I shall awake, I will seek it yet again." So it shows the addiction of liquor here.
0:38:05 Benjamin Cheah: I think that part truly describes a drunken person.
0:38:07 Philip Heng: That's right. Yeah.
0:38:09 Benjamin Cheah: I think one thing about wine, I was reading about wine in the Old Testament. Wine in the Old Testament was actually of very low alcohol percentage. Unfortunately or fortunately, our current technology allows us to have very high alcohol content beverages. In those days, people had to drink a lot of it to get drunk. But now, one glass of Chinese wine can bring a person to drunkenness.
0:38:35 Philip Heng: Yes, correct. Because of distillation and modern technology. But you see, the same idea, that's why Paul writes in Ephesians 5 and telling the Christians, "Don't be drunk with wine," Chapter 5, Verse 18. In other words, don't be controlled by wine, but be filled with the Spirit. In other words, when you are drunk with wine, and with excess of wine, you are controlled by the liquor. You do things that you should not do. But Paul says, "Be filled with the Spirit". In other words, rather than be controlled by liquor, that makes you out of control, be controlled by the Holy Spirit and you will come out alright. So we are not against wine totally, but wine tends to be a bit fearful if it is not properly controlled.
0:39:29 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, I was talking about the three ways that I was thinking about how demons torment. I think the other two; accusation and deception has... I see the medical background. Accusations, Revelations 12:10 says, "Satan is known as accuser of the brethren, but not only that he accuses everyone, he tries to haunt us with our past, even things that are not true. And to drive us down spiritually through guilt and shame." But he tells us that we are still washed with sin, when actually... We have accepted Christ and are now, righteous before God. Philippians 3:13 says, "One thing I do... " Paul says, "One thing I do, for getting those things that are behind and reaching forth unto things which are before."
Article created on 18 Feb 2015
Interview done on 2 Jan 2014
by Dr Benjamin Cheah
Contents
What are demons 0:00:28
· Satan 0:01:51
· Fallen Angels 0:05:28
· Demon's motives 0:08:00
· Spread of demons 0:12:43
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons 0:14:3
· demon talking to humans 0:18:33
· The occult 0:21:33
· Idolatry 0:25:45
How do demons torment humans 0:32:42
Alcohol 0:34:46
Introduction
0:00:05 Benjamin Cheah: Hi, I'm Benjamin of biblebasedmedicine.com. Today's a special day as I will be doing a live interview. I have with me Reverend Philip Heng. Reverend Heng has been pastoring for... How many years, Reverend?
0:00:19 Philip Heng: Fifty years.
0:00:20 Benjamin Cheah: Fifty years. His wife is a medical doctor. He has three children and...
0:00:25 Philip Heng: Three grandchildren.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:00:28 Benjamin Cheah: Reverend Heng has a wealth of experience in spiritual welfare. Our topic today is on demons and mental health. There'll be a dialogue and a learning session from Reverend Heng. Okay, I think to begin with, we will start with some basics of demon theology. Reverend Heng, can you tell us in simple terms, what are demons?
0:00:52 Philip Heng: Demons are actually angels that have fallen. They have fallen together with Lucifer and are on the opposite side of God's army. We see that very clearly in Isaiah, Chapter 14. In Isaiah, Chapter 14, Verse 12: "How are you fallen from heaven Lucifer, son of the morning? How are you cut down to the ground which did weaken the nations? For you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, the angels of God. I'll sit up on the mount of the congregation in the sights of the north... '" "'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'"
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:01:51 Philip Heng: Here we see the fall of Satan, God had made him as an outstanding chief of his angels. We read that in Ezekiel 28, about how he was the anointed Cherub. Ezekiel 28:14 and verse 15: "He was perfect in his ways from the day he was created until iniquity was found in him." And Verse 17 tells us, "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness."
0:02:31 Philip Heng: So here was an angel who was right there in the Garden of Eden, Verse 13, in the Eden of God. And he, instead of being a messenger of God... That's what an angel is, an angel is supposed to be a messenger of God. But Lucifer whose name means "Light-bearer", it's a good name, beautiful name, son of the morning. But instead of being a worker for God, he wanted to be equal to the master, so in Isaiah 14, five times he said, "I will". So self-will, ambition and pride, very easy to remember. SAP; self-will, ambition, and pride. "I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne, I will sit on the mount on the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." And it is said, when Lucifer... Instead of being just a worker for God, decided to be equal to God, that was his downfall.
0:03:44 Philip Heng: So because of that, the Bible tells us he was cast out. Revelation 12 talks about that, and we see how in the book of Revelation 12 Verse 7: "There was war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought with his angels and prevailed not. Neither was their place found anymore in heaven. The great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called the devil, and Satan was deceived the whole world. He was cast out into the Earth and his angels were cast out with him." So Satan fell and God cast him out of heaven. In other words, he was no more a resident. However, we find he does still have access to get to heaven as in the case of Job, how he came to accuse Job in front of God. So here in Revelation 12, he is called 'the Deceiver' in Verse 9: "He's deceiving the whole world". And Verse 10: "He's called 'the Accuser of the Brethren'.: So these two main... Two-pronged attack. For the non-believers, deceive them. For the believers, he accuses them, so as to make them not effective for God. But his modus operandi is to deceive.
0:05:20 Benjamin Cheah: I see. Demons are also previously angels and so they are of a spirit nature without any bodies.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:05:28 Philip Heng: : That's right. Correct. So we read that one-third of them fell in Revelation, Chapter 12, Verse 4: "His tail drew one-third of the stars of heaven", so we believe that one-third of the angelic hosts fell together with Lucifer. So two-thirds remained true to God, and then one-third fell following Lucifer, who's now called Satan.
0:05:58 Benjamin Cheah: Demons also have a hierarchy structure.
0:06:00 Philip Heng: Yes, we read about that in Ephesians, Chapter 6, and also Colossians. In Colossians, we read that they are called 'principalities' and 'powers'. In Colossians, Chapter 1, Verse 16: "For by Him were all things created by Jesus Christ that were in heaven, that were in Earth, visible, invisible. Whether they be thrones, dominions, principalities or powers." So we see these are different ranks of angels. Yeah, all things were created by Him and for Him. And in Ephesians 6, we see the same thing, in Chapter 6 Verse 12: "We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." So we see the ranks of the different angels. Yes.
0:07:06 Benjamin Cheah: Are there many, many demons? I've read some articles that said they are probably as many demons as there are humans on earth, billions of them.
0:07:16 Philip Heng: We don't really know. All we know is in Revelation, Chapter 5. There we read about when we get to heaven, and here's the worship of God in heaven, Chapters 4 and 5. In Chapter 5 Verse 11: "I beheld, I heard the voice of many angels about the throne and the beast and the elders and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands." So the word that he's used is myriads, many. I mean so, millions and millions of them, uncountable.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:08:00 Benjamin Cheah: What are demons' motives? What do they want?
0:08:04 Philip Heng: Alright. I think they all fall in line with Satan's motive. Satan's motive, as we see in Isaiah 14, he wants to be like God. So when we look at God's purpose for creating the universe, it is for people to worship Him, Isaiah 43. And for people to have fellowship with Him. For God's purpose is that we would worship Him and have fellowship with Him. And Satan wants exactly the same thing. So he wants to be worshipped and he wants to have fellowship with those who have been beguiled by him.
0:08:48 Benjamin Cheah: So Satan wants us to worship him?
0:08:50 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:08:51 Benjamin Cheah: He also wants Jesus to worship him.
0:08:53 Philip Heng: Correct, yeah. That's exactly. So in Matthew, Chapter 4, we see that happening where... We see Satan wanted very much everybody to worship him just like God wants everyone to worship him. And can you imagine here is the angel who was made by God telling Jesus, "Will you come and worship me?" And you are the son of God. And Matthew, Chapter 4, Verse 8: The devil takes Jesus up to a exceeding high mountain, showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them and he said, "All these things will I give you if you will fall down and worship me." So that is exactly what he wants. He wants worship. And imagine, here is a creature telling the Creator, "If you will fall down and worship me, I will give you all the glories of the kingdoms of the Earth." I mean this is really a mockery of... Here is an angel telling the Creator, "If you worship me, I'll give you all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them." Imagine the cheek of a created being telling the Creator, it's really crazy. And Jesus tells him straight on "Get thee behind me, Satan. It is written", what are you gonna do? "You are to worship the Lord and him only shall thou serve." So our God given purpose as humans on Earth is to worship God, serve the Lord and have fellowship with the Lord.
0:10:42 Benjamin Cheah: I find that this sinful nature has also created many men to want to worship from other people.
0:10:49 Philip Heng: Well, see the Bible tells us Satan has blinded the eyes of those who don't want to believe. So in 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4. I mean why do people... I mean a lot of intelligent people, well endowed with wisdom, but you see the Bible tells us in 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4, Verse 3: "If our Gospel is hid, it is hid to those who are lost, in whom the God of this world... " 'The God of this world refers to Satan'. Because God had commanded Adam and Eve to take charge, commanded Adam basically, "You are to have dominion over the Earth". But then when he capitulated before Satan, so Satan takes over and so he's called the God of this world. So he has blinded the minds of those who don't want to believe. So when people don't want to believe it suits the devil just fine. The Bible says, "The devil blinds the eyes of them lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." So it is both.
0:12:05 Philip Heng: Our relationship with God is a two-way relationship. Likewise, the people who want to relate to Satan is a two-way relationship. Satan cannot just jump on a guy and say, "Hey, you follow me." He cannot. It is Satan trying to beguile him and then the person will say, "Okay, I choose you," in the same way as believing in God, in Christ. God doesn't grab hold of you and say, "You've got to believe in me." No. It is, "I present you the truth. It is up to you whether you want to believe." So, it's a two-way street. It is a mutual relationship.
What are demons?
· Satan
· Fallen Angels
· Demon's motives
· Spread of demons
0:12:43 Benjamin Cheah: How widespread is the problem of demons?
0:12:47 Philip Heng: How widespread? I think it's all over the world. I mean, that's what we see in the Book of Job. We see very clearly Satan tell us his domain or his realm of activity. Well, we see here in the Book of Job. "One day", we read in Chapter 1, Verse 6, "There was a day when the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. Satan came among them, and the Lord said to Satan, 'Where are you from?' And Satan answered the Lord, "From going to and fro in the Earth and from walking up and down in it.'" So, we see that Satan has access to God in heaven, and he comes down to the Earth and he goes to and fro upon the Earth walking up and down in it.
0:13:35 Philip Heng: So, it's interesting that he only functions and his peregrinations... That means his movements are on the Earth, around the Earth. Sometimes, we wish he would go to Pluto, far away and leave us all alone, but this is where God put human life. That's why we believe that life is only in this planet, Earth. And it's where Satan comes to deceive the people and that's where the Lord Jesus came to die for the people, it's on this Earth. God did not send Jesus to some other planet, and neither did Satan choose to go to other planets.
0:14:21 Benjamin Cheah: When you tell me of this, I am reminded of what Jesus said. Yeah. He's a good shepherd. We are the sheep, and Satan's the roaring lion frequently prowling around.
0:14:29 Philip Heng: That's right.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:14:31 Benjamin Cheah: But I find that most people cannot feel the presence of this demonic activity. I mean as a doctor, I think of this hypothesis.
0:14:42 Philip Heng: Yeah.
0:14:42 Benjamin Cheah: I'll just talk about it, if you think that it's true.
0:14:46 Philip Heng: Yeah.
0:14:47 Benjamin Cheah: I think as human, we have two parts, physical body and the spirit. Genesis 2 clearly explains this concept. Our physical body experiences a physical world through our five senses and through our intellect. But our human spirit is not very sensitive to the spiritual world. What I think is because of sin and partly God dulled our spiritual sense after Adam's sin, which I think is a good thing. Adam could relate to God. God was a spirit probably interacting with Adam in the Garden of Eden. But after Adam sinned, he could not directly contact God any more because God is holy. I was thinking why we can't sense the demon activity because God has dulled our spiritual sense, because if we still had acute spiritual sense, we would be interacting with demons instead.
0:15:49 Philip Heng: Well, we are actually either bi-partite or tri-partite. We are either body and soul, or body, soul and spirit. Some believe in body and soul, but I believe in body and soul and spirit because that's what the Bible talks about in 1 Thessalonians. Paul talks about how God will protect your body, soul and spirit, blameless till the day of Jesus Christ. So in 1 Thessalonians, yeah... Chapter 5, Verse 23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you holy and I pray God that your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ." So, actually, every human is three parts.
0:16:54 Philip Heng: We have a body which we can see and touch and feel which makes us object conscious or world conscious, and we have a soul which makes us conscious of other human beings. We look at them. We smile at them. We talk to them, we relate to them, but the Bible talks about the spiritual aspect which is non-tangible to us, but it is very conscious. It's just like talking over the phone. When you talk over the phone to your son or to your friend, you don't see him. You don't touch him. You don't feel him, but you hear him and you communicate over the phone. It is soul and soul. But when you are in dire difficulty, especially during the war. Someone is sitting in the foxhole amongst the soldiers, there's no atheist because all of them are crying out, "Oh God, whoever you are help me." Well, that's the spirit wanting to relate to God. So we have these three parts of our personality; body, soul and spirit. So we are not so conscious of the spiritual world because after the fall of Adam, the spiritual aspects are dulled.
0:18:27 Benjamin Cheah: I think it's good because, if not, we'll be conversing with the devil instead all the time.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:18:33 Philip Heng: Well, see the devil will try to converse with us and we've got to be very careful. I think a lot of people are not conscious of it, but the Bible warns us, especially when we get angry. In Ephesians, Chapter 4, this is actually a good reminder to people including Christians, believers, because when we get angry, the Bible tells us we say things and we do things which are not rational. We go beyond our rationale and a lot of times, people in a fit of anger, in a moment of anger, in a split second, they do a stupid thing and they destroy themselves or they destroy others and it's not just their anger. The Bible tells us very clearly in Ephesians, Chapter 4, Verse 26: "Be angry, but don't sin in your anger." In other words there are some things called righteous anger, but there are some things called anger which is not righteous.
0:19:36 Philip Heng: Righteous anger is when we do something according to God's will. We see a robber grabbing the bag from an old lady. You get angry with the robber and you go out to him, you try to grab him. That's okay. That's righteous anger. You're angry with the robber for doing something wrong against an old lady. But a lot of times, we get angry with others, it's based on ourselves, it's based on our own self standard. When parents get angry and say to the child, "You're not clever. You're stupid," and then they do something in their anger. Or somebody who's angry with his friend or even husbands against wives. In the fit of anger, the mind shuts off and the devil can put thoughts in. And I just want to say this, this is very real, why? It happened to me and then I realized how real that verse is in the Bible. Don't give place to the devil, because when you get angry, the devil is able to put thoughts into your head which are not your own. It is very frightening.
0:20:50 Benjamin Cheah: I guess it's the same way the Holy Spirit prompts us...
0:20:54 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:20:54 Benjamin Cheah: And our spirit...
0:20:54 Philip Heng: Yes, very true.
0:20:55 Benjamin Cheah: When we started to meditate on him. I do find that some people are spiritually more sensitive to the spirit side compared to other Christians. Is it something that they have? Do you agree that some people are a bit more sensitive, like someone is more sensitive to smells, some people are more sensitive to sight, some people can understand maths and science, some people can understand arts, some people are just very sensitive to the spirit side and they tend to experience these things more... These demonic things more.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:21:33 Philip Heng: Yes. It's a matter of choice and experience. The people I deal with, some who grew up in non-Christian background, they see the medium in a trance, exposure to that from an early age, and so they are very sensitive to spiritual things. But the devil goes after people who like to play with him. See the Bible talks about, "Don't mess around with horoscope, palmistry, fortune telling, black magic, white magic." All this is clearly warned. God gives clear warning. In Deuteronomy 18, Verse 9: "When you have come into the world, into the land." God told the Children of Israel, "When you have come to the land which the Lord gives you, don't learn to do the abominations of the nations, the heathen." What do they do? The Bible says, "There shall not be found among you anyone that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire." In those days, the heathen nations, they offered their children as burnt offerings, sacrifices to the heathen Gods, Moloch or Molech.
0:22:52 Philip Heng: So, God said, "You are my chosen people. Don't do that. Don't make a sacrifice of your son through an oblation, through a fire sacrifice to a heathen God, to an idol or that uses divination." That means fortune telling. Many kinds of fortune telling. They're using arrows, they use the hepatoscopy, using the liver. They will cut the liver and then... It's just a lot of, "Oh, this blotch means this. That blotch means that." Or people trying to... What do you call, palmistry. "This line means length of life. That line means whatever." They come up with all kinds of supposition and it suits the devil just fine, because whatever is not based on truth, the devil would like to come in and take advantage of that. So, they will shoot arrows, belomancy, hepatoscopy, and liver, so many things, just as the Chinese one. They throw coins and that kind of thing.
0:24:09 Philip Heng: So God says, "Don't do this kind of divination." An observer of times, horoscope. Or an enchanter, those who cast spells. Or a witch, those that control spirits. A witch is a female that controls evil. They can put charms either of wood. The charms can be using wood, and it can be using the tusk of wild boar or some pig or wild pig. So they use animal parts, animal organs to try to use it as an object of protection or an object to... Well, to go against another person.
0:25:01 Philip Heng: So the Bible warns it, "Avoid familiar spirits". And those who are wizards, or those who control spirits. Or a necromancer, those who deal with the spirits of the dead. The Bible tells us the spirits of the dead, they have actually either gone to heaven or to hell. But the evil spirits, the demons, like to act the part of somebody who has departed in order to beguile those who are... Yeah, those who worship Satan or are susceptible to him.
0:25:33 Benjamin Cheah: I think what you have just described, idolatry and the occult, are ways that invite the demons to come and get involved in our lives.
0:25:44 Philip Heng: Yes.
Communication with demons
· Sensing the presence of demons
· demon talking to humans
· The occult
· Idolatry
0:25:45 Benjamin Cheah: Otherwise, it's actually something, God has put a barrier between the demon and us. By doing such things, we are inviting a spirit side of our lives to be opened up. Are there other ways, for example, like drinking alcohol, addiction to sex, to gambling; does it open ourselves to the demonic side as well?
0:26:08 Philip Heng: Yeah. Okay. You see, what you just touched on. I know this is a sensitive part, but idolatry. A lot of people think that idolatry is real to them, but what is really idolatry? Can that object, the physical object, whether it be wood, or stone, or paper, or an animal organ; can it really have that kind of power? Where does the power come from? The Bible is very clear. And there are people who when upon hearing what I say, you want to read that for yourself.
0:26:48 Philip Heng: In 1 Corinthians, Chapter 10, the apostle Paul is trying to make it clear to us, Verse 19: "What do I say then? Is the idol anything or that which is offered and sacrificed to idol, is it anything? But I say that the things which the Gentiles' sacrifice, the non-believers, the non-Christian sacrifice, they're actually sacrificing to demonic spirits and not to God." In other words, upfront, it looks like the idol, but behind it is the evil spirit.
0:27:26 Philip Heng: So think carefully. We speak this out of love for you. If you happen to be an idolater, think carefully. Because I have dealt with many idolaters and I feel sad for them. I used to live at the church in Gilstead Road and behind was low-lying, especially during the rainy season December to February, when the monsoon strikes and the floods come, people are reluctant to leave. It is sad. Because when the floods come, the idols get affected. So be careful. Think carefully about who you really are worshipping and whether it can help you in a time of crisis. Alright, as to those who are being afflicted by demonic forces. You have mentioned those who indulge in sex and...
0:28:30 Benjamin Cheah: Forms of addiction.
0:28:31 Philip Heng: Forms of addiction. Okay. The Bible tells us that sex is a God-given thing. It is something which is honourable between husband and wife. In others, if sex is done with the right person, male and female, to whom they are committed one to another in bonds of marriage and at the right time. At the right time, with the right person, with the right relationship of marriage, it is honourable and perfectly in order. But it is illicit sex that is not legal and not according to God's word. That is where the judgement and curse of God comes. It's an abomination. Bible warns against bestiality, having sex with animals. I was shocked when I first read this as a young fellow. "Oh, people do that?"
0:29:39 Philip Heng: But then, as you grow up you realize, yes, there are people who do that. And so, we want to be very careful. In Leviticus 18, it tells us the relationships that we cannot have. Incest, relationships within certain close marital relationships or familial relationships is not allowed. God says it's not allowed. It's strange that later on medical science finds it out. Haemophilia coming down through the royal families because of their close ties in marriage. And then the Bible warns us, Leviticus 18, "Don't lie with... " Well, Verse 21: "Those who pass their seed through the fire to Molech." And Verse 22: "Those who lie with mankind as with womankind." This homosexuality, lesbianism, it's all clearly forbidden in God's word. God knows it's wrong. God had said to Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful and multiply." In homosexuality, how to be fruitful and multiply?
0:30:57 Philip Heng: I sometimes feel so sad. Man is supposed to be the wisest of God's creation, the highest. Yes, next to the angels. Psalm 8 tells us very clearly. Next to the angels, we are the highest of God's creation. And yet, we find man is the one that tries to marry another man, woman with woman, men and men, which is wrong. Psalm 8 tells us, "You have made men a little lower than the angels." Yes, angels are higher than men. Stronger, wiser. Man is a bit lower. And then after that, are the animals. But we find that man is making decisions worse than the animals.
0:31:41 Philip Heng: So, Bible warns against them. In Leviticus 18, "Don't lie with mankind as with womankind." It's abomination. It is very offensive to God. Don't lie with them, beast to defile yourself. Neither shall any man stand before a beast to lie with it. It is confusion. So, man cannot lie with animals, neither should woman lie with animals. So, God clearly tells us all these. So, when you say that they go and do this because... Not that they are drunk and then they do it. A lot of times, I think they voluntarily go do it. And they know it's wrong, but they just want to try. So, it's a choice to begin with. But then once they get into it, it becomes an addiction. They cannot stop. I go to Thailand, I see some of these cases. So I feel very sad for them.
How do demons torment humans ?
0:32:42 Benjamin Cheah: Okay. In what ways do demons torment humans? I've thought about three ways. One, they can torment us through temptation. The other is through an accusation and through deception. Maybe, I'll talk about what I think. So temptation, I think every normal believer can be tempted. And then, James, Chapter 4, tells us how to deal with this temptation. It says, "To submit ourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts. You double-minded." I think the word 'double-minded' is quite important here.
0:33:30 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:33:34 Benjamin Cheah: I think there are a lot of Christians on the outward. They go to church. They serve, but there's a double-mind to it. At the same time, they are involved in, maybe alcohol in some countries. Some are involved in sex or pornography and some are given in to anger. They were telling us. I've seen many cases of anger resulting in family violence, resulting in irrational behaviour, which my patients tell me they wonder why they do this all the time. And I think, all these things of the double-mindedness cause the demons to come and influence even up to Christians.
0:34:24 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:34:24 Benjamin Cheah: So, it's kind of strange, I could say. At one hand, the Christian is doing well spiritually on the outside, but he has a double side to him on the other side. And this invites the demons or unhealthy spiritual influences.
Alcohol
0:34:46 Philip Heng: Yeah, okay. I think, I want to be very clear here. Not every drunk is demonized.
0:34:54 Benjamin Cheah: Correct.
0:34:55 Philip Heng: Yeah. In other words...
0:34:56 Benjamin Cheah: The physical aspect, the chemical aspect of alcohol will cause a person to lose his self-control. It can bring up violence. I've seen it many times. But I think in some cases, it connects this person to the other side.
0:35:13 Philip Heng: Yes, but not always.
0:35:14 Benjamin Cheah: It opens up, just like occult.
0:35:16 Philip Heng: Yes. I think... You see, wine, the Bible doesn't totally forbid wine. You know? Wine is good as a medicine. Paul tells Timothy, "Take a little wine, it's good for your stomach's sake". In 1 Timothy, apparently Timothy had some stomach problem. At first Timothy, Chapter 5, Verse 23: "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and for your often infirmities." So, there is medicinal value in wine. Yeah?
0:36:00 Philip Heng: And wine is able to take away the inhibition and let the people enjoy the party a little bit. But of course there's a consequence and they usually have a hangover the day after. So, the psalmist who wrote tells us very clearly that wine should be held in the right perspective. You don't want to drink so much that you get... In Proverbs, Chapter 23, Verse 29: "Who's the one that has woe? Who's the one that has sorrow? Who's the one that has contentions and argument? Who's the one that has babbling and has wounds without cause and redness of the eyes?"
0:36:55 Philip Heng: Now, Verse 30 tells us, "Those who tarry long at the wine." In other words, take the wine again and again, and they that go seek mixed wine. A little is okay, but when they keep at it, then it's dangerous. Verse 31 says, "Don't look upon the wine when it is red, when it gives it's color to the cup. Then when it moves itself alright, it will bite like a serpent and sting like a snake, an asp. Your eyes will behold strange women and your heart will utter perverse things."
0:37:28 Philip Heng: So when a person takes more and more liquor, there is less and less control of himself. And then he will be in a very sad state. Verse 34 tells us, "He's like one that lies down in the middle of the ocean and that lies upon the top of the mast." He's not sure where he is. Either at the bottom of the sea or on the top of the mast in the boat. "And they struck me, but I was not sick. They have beaten me and I did not feel any pain. And when I shall awake, I will seek it yet again." So it shows the addiction of liquor here.
0:38:05 Benjamin Cheah: I think that part truly describes a drunken person.
0:38:07 Philip Heng: That's right. Yeah.
0:38:09 Benjamin Cheah: I think one thing about wine, I was reading about wine in the Old Testament. Wine in the Old Testament was actually of very low alcohol percentage. Unfortunately or fortunately, our current technology allows us to have very high alcohol content beverages. In those days, people had to drink a lot of it to get drunk. But now, one glass of Chinese wine can bring a person to drunkenness.
0:38:35 Philip Heng: Yes, correct. Because of distillation and modern technology. But you see, the same idea, that's why Paul writes in Ephesians 5 and telling the Christians, "Don't be drunk with wine," Chapter 5, Verse 18. In other words, don't be controlled by wine, but be filled with the Spirit. In other words, when you are drunk with wine, and with excess of wine, you are controlled by the liquor. You do things that you should not do. But Paul says, "Be filled with the Spirit". In other words, rather than be controlled by liquor, that makes you out of control, be controlled by the Holy Spirit and you will come out alright. So we are not against wine totally, but wine tends to be a bit fearful if it is not properly controlled.
0:39:29 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, I was talking about the three ways that I was thinking about how demons torment. I think the other two; accusation and deception has... I see the medical background. Accusations, Revelations 12:10 says, "Satan is known as accuser of the brethren, but not only that he accuses everyone, he tries to haunt us with our past, even things that are not true. And to drive us down spiritually through guilt and shame." But he tells us that we are still washed with sin, when actually... We have accepted Christ and are now, righteous before God. Philippians 3:13 says, "One thing I do... " Paul says, "One thing I do, for getting those things that are behind and reaching forth unto things which are before."
Article created on 18 Feb 2015
Interview done on 2 Jan 2014
by Dr Benjamin Cheah