Interview Part 2
Contents
Mental Illness 0:40:26
Demons attack 1:01:46
Demon possession
Mental Illness
· Differentiating mental / emotional illness from demons
0:40:26 Benjamin Cheah: I have dealt with patients who are depressed and who are schizophrenic. Schizophrenic is, now is a medical condition. Previously, Bible calls it madness. We're not sure what Nebuchadnezzar had. Remember, Nebuchadnezzar was a little mad for a while, but I've dealt with many, many patients who had schizophrenia and depressed. Especially worse are the schizophrenics, they frequently hear voices talking to them. Voices to tell them that they are bad people. They are bad things. All their friends are looking down on them and they will imagine the television, maybe a newscaster talking to them. Have you heard of these? Telling them things...
0:41:13 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:41:13 Benjamin Cheah: And somehow, all these things are bad stuff. And then they have strange visions. So I thought why don't they have good visions? Why don't they have voices telling them to study hard? Or voices telling them that they should work hard and provide for the family? But frequently, it's always bad stuff. And depressed people are always having bad thoughts in them. I usually ask my patients who I'm treating for major depression, which is again now a clinical condition... It's strange how many things medicine has turned into a disease. Yes, it's very unfortunate. Just like homosexuality. At one time, we turned it into a disease and now we say it's normal. It's very unfortunate.
0:42:02 Benjamin Cheah: But depression and... For depressed people, if you could ask them, "Why do you have these depressed thoughts?" They'll say, "I've no idea. I don't want to think about them, but these thoughts just come to me." And I ask them, "Are these thoughts just appear in your mind?" And you try to unthink them, to force unthink, but they're not able to, and in times of debt and stress, they keep thinking about it and about it, and it goes in a very vicious cycle. I think, again, this is one way... Or maybe in some of these depressed people, they are also spiritually sensitive. And it's one way they get tormented by demons. One way, not all of them but some. I'm not talking about the heavy-handed like demon possession, but some... Many people have depression. Statistics show up to about one quarter of people in their lifetime will suffer from medical, clinical depression, 1% of population will suffer from schizophrenia, and... It is very sad. You do counsel patients? I mean, counsel church members or non-Christians with mental diseases and how do you find or explain these phenomena?
0:43:20 Philip Heng: My understanding of people with mental sickness and all that is like... I think all of us are born with certain weaknesses. Some are physically weak, some are mentally weak, some are socially not very friendly. And the Bible says we are all spiritually dead to begin with. So there are people... Just like some people who are handicapped physically, there are some people who are visually handicapped, there are some people who are hearing impaired. There are some people with weak stomachs. So it's a physical aspect that is weak. Similarly, I think there are some people who are born with certain mental susceptibilities and weaknesses. So they get afraid very easily or they're shy or they... So on. So I see people in the congregation that have fixated ideas. Some fall for a certain... Some girls fall for certain men. Some men fall for certain girls. So they will tell you it's beyond their control. They'll tell you it's beyond their control. Well, I suppose it's a weakness just like people who have a hernia. And that part of the body has a weakness. So I see that some of these mental weaknesses are compounded with spiritual problems.
0:44:58 Benjamin Cheah: That's what I find too as well.
0:44:59 Philip Heng: Yes. Because a lot of families when their loved one is mentally, to them substandard, they'll bring to the... Either the medium, yeah, spirit medium. And then they will begin to do chanting to bring forth spiritual health. And without realizing, a lot of times the evil spirits come into the picture. So I had a guy, yeah. Actually, he was normal. He went to be a NS boy soldier, perfectly normal. And one of his buddies died. So he got shocked by death. Then when he came out, another friend of his died. He also... So double shock. So the next thing he knew was, he gets up in the morning, he shakes his head. And from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM, he just... So the poor mother now having to trail a 18-year-old boy, 19-year-old, boy and so brings to the temple. So the temple says, "Oh, his spirit has left him and gone for a walk. So I can get him back." "Oh good, please help." Of course, the medium wants... "How much are you prepared to pay?" "Oh, we are poor people. We cannot afford." "Well, okay. If you are too poor then there's no way I can help you."
0:46:28 Philip Heng: But the medium is able to influence the boy, and the boy goes to the bank and pulls out his own money to give to the medium. So the family, of course, is very agitated. "We are not prepared to pay that kind of money, but our son is giving the medium the money." So what has happened is to begin with, the young man was shocked by death twice and while he's not so stable, gone to the medium, the medium puts a spell that controls him and he is bound by that spirit medium. So finally the family calls for help. So I go to the home. So I tell them, "If you want, Jesus can help." Because I've seen with my own eyes. I've prayed for people and the Lord delivers them. If it's something spiritual, it's instantaneous. Because Bible tells us in 1 John 4, "Greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world." So the spirit of Jesus is more powerful than any angelic spirit or demonic spirit. So demons are angels that have fallen and gone to the wrong side.
0:47:41 Philip Heng: So when a person becomes a Christian and prays for Jesus to come in, the evil spirit goes out. And that person is instantaneously delivered. Actually, in my ministry, dealing with demonic cases is, it's a joy. It's a sense of victory because you get... It's clear-cut, clear-cut. Whereas in mental cases and others, especially in psychological type of situations, it's a lot of ding-dong. Husband and wife relationship, now you be nice, don't disturb your wife, don't bully her, wife, be nice and submissive to your husband. Those are some of the hardest cases because the person's mind is still keen and alert. Whereas in a demonic case, when his personality is taken over by the evil spirit and the spirit is cast out, that person is instantly delivered.
0:48:45 Benjamin Cheah: So Reverend Heng...
0:48:46 Philip Heng: Yeah.
Mental Illness
· Differentiating mental / emotional illness from demons
0:48:47 Benjamin Cheah: How can we or how do you differentiate a mental or emotional issue from, let's say, a demon problem?
0:48:54 Philip Heng: Alright. If there is demonic situation, there's always a way in. The devil cannot jump into a person's life at will. It is the person going to seek that evil spirit's cooperation and help. So alright, here's this lady. She's trying to have a son. No, she's got three daughters and trying to get a son. So go and get help from mediums, yeah. And then people start to put charms on her, yeah. So I get a call at 2:00 AM, alright. So I try to talk to her over the phone. The next time she calls, again 2:00 AM. I say, okay, talk to her. That night again, I said, "I must come and see you. You must come, I wanna see you. I don't wanna treat just over the phone." So when she comes, she's dressed to kill, low neckline, high hemline. And she apparently had tried to cut her wrist. So anyway, she comes for Bible study, so it was okay. Then one night, we say, "Come and join us for prayer." She can't take it. So on the way out, she just flicks her hand at the louvres in the window. And three panes just break, just like that. She just flicks her hand and three panes break.
0:50:28 Philip Heng: So we realized that it's not human power anymore; it's superhuman power. And after breaking that, she sprints home, runs home very fast. So I go to the house and I tell the husband. I said, "This lady is not normal. I think you better come to the church. We'll pray for her." So husband was very willing, came with the three daughters. So we put her right in the sanctuary, in front of the Holy Communion table. We put her on the wooden platform where you... And you put your mattress on top. And she sleeps there with her three daughters and her husband. And we got two young men, soldier boys, to be sentries. So we told her husband, "Since your wife tends to get up and sprint out of the church, you might need to tie her." So we put string at four corners, tie her hands, so that the four limbs are tied. She can turn enough in the sleep, but cannot reach and untie. So the one hand, one corner, other hand, the other corner. One leg, one corner; the other leg, so four corners, four limbs, alright? So let her go to sleep with her husband, with her daughters, with her two sentries. Then about 2, 3 o'clock, she starts to vibrate out of control.
0:52:12 Philip Heng: So the guards called me. I said, "In Jesus' name, you stop it." Then she wakes up as if from a trance. I say, "What's the matter?" and she said, "Pastor, my panties are off". "Your panties are off?" I woke the husband and said, "Sir, we are honest people. We are not up to any monkey business. We didn't touch your wife in any way. But she is now telling us her panties are off." She's still tied, the four limbs, so we untie her hand. And then she reaches down to her bottom and she pulls out her panties. Of course, all of us are flabbergasted. How do you take off your panties when your legs are tied and apart? So I instruct my two lady workers to bring the patient to the toilet and put on the panties again, and put on a pair of trousers over the panties. And then, after that, I again put her back to sleep. About 4 o'clock, again, she's vibrating, out of control.
0:53:38 Philip Heng: So the guards called me. "In Jesus' name, wake up. Alright, what is it this time?" Then looking so helplessly, with her hands still tied and apart, "Pastor, my panties are off again." So untie her hand and sure enough she reaches behind her and she pulls off her panties. We are baffled, your legs are tied and apart, under your skirt, with the pants on, how do your panties come off? So, we reassured her husband, we don't do anything that is improper and immoral. So, this goes on through the whole day to the afternoon. Oh, yes, we let her go to toilet, we feed her and all that. But when she's not doing the necessary, we tie her up. And 2 o'clock in the afternoon my team is at the back, with the two sentries beside her, she goes out into a trance again. So call for me, "In Jesus' name, wake up, what is it this time?" "My bra is off, and hooked and flung 15 feet under the pews."
0:55:13 Philip Heng: Excuse me! How do you do that with your two hands tied and your two legs tied? How do you take off your bra? Who's taking it off? So, that is what we call demonic stuff. It is super human, it's not human at all. So, as the days went by... There are times I prayed with her. Times... Okay, I pray with her, and then she starts to bleed on her forehead. Nobody touching her, nobody within range. She starts to bleed right across her forehead, cuts appear across the forehead. So, I said I better take her to the doctor. So, I took her the doctor in West Coast, not a Christian doctor. So the doctor treats her, puts a plaster on top, "Thank you very much, doctor. Bye-bye." We walk to the car, phiss! Cuts again, and she's bleeding right across the plaster, all the dressing. And back to the doctor, "Excuse me doctor. I don't know what happened, but she's bleeding again." "I think she's got a knife or a pin or sharp fingernails, but never mind I'll fix her." So, he dressed her up again and this time the doctor cleverly sews the dressing into the skin of her forehead. "Thank you, doctor. Bye-bye." We go to the car, phiss! She's bleeding again. This time the cuts are underneath the plaster, "How do you do that?" Well, thank God, the doctor got converted after that.
0:57:21 Benjamin Cheah: Very soon after that?
0:57:22 Philip Heng: Yeah, because how to explain? I am trying to tell him there are demonic forces and only Jesus can deliver. One day, I took this lady with my team, thank God for our team. I got sometimes six, eight, 10, 12, who take turns to help look after her, male, female, all. So, one day we took her for a drive. Alright, before that drive, IMH called up, wanted to see her. So that day I drove her alone. So she's beside me, all strapped up in the car, and I'm going down Adam Road, Lornie Road towards MacRitchie Reservoir on the way to IMH Woodbridge. And suddenly after passing Sime Road, I realize that I'm driving so close to the curb, I'm on the left-most lane. And the thought came to my mind, "What if she pulls my steering?" So at that moment, I shifted my car to the next lane to the right. And only when I shifted to the right, she pulled my steering. And that was near where Andrew Road... The other end of Andrew Road. So, there was a temple down at the bottom of the hill in those days. So, when she grabbed my steering my car nearly flipped, but I was able to struggle and the car came to a halt. If I were on extreme left, I think the car would have hit the curb and probably flipped over. But I thank God, the thought that came to my mind, move my car before she pulls the steering.
0:59:13 Benjamin Cheah: I guess there was the Spirit prompting
0:59:15 Philip Heng: I believe so, I mean there's no way I could know what she was going to do. But the thought that came into my mind must have been put there by God to alert me what was going to happen. And another similar situation, on another day I had the team with me and we were in an open truck. One of the boys borrowed the truck from his father. So, the boy was driving, young man, I was beside him in the caboose, in the cab in front, and the rest of them were sitting in the back. And this lady was holding her daughter, just one year plus, and... With back towards me. So as we were going down the road beside the beach, I turned around just to have a look, and I saw her with her baby in her arms.
1:00:09 Philip Heng: And a thought came to my mind "I hope she doesn't throw her baby." This woman, she stood up and she threw her baby towards the end of the truck. I was so horrified. But thank God, God provides everything, because the last guy at the very end of the truck was Albert Lee who's a rugby player in Raffles Institution. So he went out for the ball, and only this time it's the baby. So he grabbed the baby in mid-air The truck was doing 40 KM and he just grabbed hold of the baby and saved her. Came to a halt, and of course, she's not herself, she's not herself. So that's the difference between demonic and mental.
1:00:54 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, well, you've described the thorough supernatural activities. I suppose, in the Bible, you talk about people who are demon possessed with supernatural strength.
1:01:03 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:01:04 Benjamin Cheah: And some kind of supernatural knowledge. That kind of foreknowledge.
1:01:07 Philip Heng: Yes, and abnormal behaviour, very abnormal.
1:01:11 Benjamin Cheah: These are the obvious cases. Let me ask you something that is again more theological. Is there a difference between oppression and possession? Can actually someone be possessed? Like we are body, spirit and soul? Can the demon, which is old spirit, inhibit the same body, or the demon just oppresses it and sends thoughts into the person? What actually happens? Is there an explanation?
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:01:46 Philip Heng: Yes, it's not just inhibit but inhabit. [chuckle] Yeah, not just inhibit. Bible talks about demonization. But we see three levels of oppression, three levels of attack. Obsession of the mind, oppression of the body, and possession of the total personality. So, obsession is the devil inflicting the mind, attacking the mind, causing doubts, causing fears, causing confusion and frustration.
1:02:33 Benjamin Cheah: And let's talk about temptations.
1:02:36 Philip Heng: Temptations...
1:02:37 Benjamin Cheah: In such temptations like insert the idea of love for money, love for sexual stuff, illicit sex, unnatural sex, pornography. Inserting temptations into the mind. That level of obsessions?
1:02:55 Philip Heng: That one I cannot say for sure. Because I think the natural man, without evil spirits' interference, some of them already have a highly sex... Some of them have an overdose. But some, by taking liquor, by taking other intoxicants...
1:03:16 Benjamin Cheah: It aggravates the situation.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:03:17 Philip Heng: Yeah. There are some that are man-made. Those that are sexually, spiritually, yes, I think there are. I mean, this woman talks about having sex with evil spirits and all that kind of thing. There were occasions when she was having sex with her husband and she goes out of control. Yes. It is very unusual. But being obsessed, mind being controlled by evil spirits, yes. This person goes into the bathroom, comes out, doesn't know what she is doing, goes in and comes out, goes in comes out. What's happening? "Somebody far down, three miles away, can see me and knows what I'm about to do, so I'm very cautious." I mean, there's nobody in real, but three miles away that's what he thinks of somebody seeing him, that kind of thing. Obsession of the mind, fear of going to a certain place, thoughts that people are reading his mind, thoughts that people are watching him and his movement. To ask, is it a mental problem?
1:04:34 Benjamin Cheah: Yes. It fits a mental diagnosis yes.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:04:38 Philip Heng: Correct. So there are these people who tell us that. So... But we know that there are some spiritual interference where they're not delivered yet. The people like that. Then we have oppression. Oppression we normally classify as physical affliction. "Oh, something's breaking my arm. Ouch! Ouch!" Hey, there's nobody touching that fellow, but he's... Somebody's breaking his arm. So things like that kind. Actually there are some things which are very hard to explain. When I deal with demonic cases my car can misbehave. Like I'm coming home from Gilstead Road Life Church to my house in Pasir Panjang. When I get into my car, suddenly my red light on the dashboard comes on, it is charging. When you start the engine the red light is supposed to disappear, but it doesn't. The red light keeps on.
1:05:53 Philip Heng: There are times when you want to start, it won't start, you want it to start, it won't start. The red light comes on, but it won't start. So I tell my co-worker, I said, "I'm gonna pray to start the car." So I say, "Oh Lord Jesus, please remove whatever is hindering the car from starting. In Jesus' name, I break the power of whatever spirit is causing it not to start. And in Jesus' name, amen." And my car starts. But then when I start driving, the car goes off. It just will not run smoothly. And I drive it all the way, seven-and-a-half miles back to Pasir Panjang. The next day I send the car in, nothing wrong with the car.
1:06:38 Philip Heng: So I realized in spiritual cases, it affects my car. It affects my telephone. I tell this guy, "Hey, I'm going to call you when I'm ready." And he said, "I've been waiting at the telephone, I never heard your call." Another occasion, I was going from Jurong to Dr. Tow house. And, alright, I was on a case and the moment I came on Toh Tuck Road onto the Pan Island, not far from Glory Church at Pei Hwa School, there's a temple there, too.
1:07:21 Benjamin Cheah: It's still there.
1:07:22 Philip Heng: Yes, I think so. I just couldn't believe it when I got on to the highway and as I started to accelerate, suddenly go "poom", there's an explosion in my car front. And then my engine on my car, started to stall and comes to a halt. So I got it by the roadside and I tried to start, it won't start. So I call the AA, Automobile Association. So they came, opened up the bonnet and they said, "Hmm, your spark plug has come off the engine block with the hose still attached, with the wire still attached." So I said, "What's the cause of it?" He said, "I've never seen anything like that. Because your spark plug has to be screwed in so many rounds, how does it jump out? And your cable is still intact. I've never seen anything like that." So put it back, okay. Car is perfectly okay.
1:08:32 Philip Heng: On another occasion I went to remove idols from a house. I put them in the trunk of my car. I went around Bukit Timah Circus at Yeo Hiap Seng at that time, and then came onto Pan Island where the Ngee Ann Technical...
1:08:53 Benjamin Cheah: Ngee Ann Poly.
1:08:53 Philip Heng: Ngee Ann Poly, yeah. So, and I got onto the highway, no car in front of me. There probably is a truck about 200 meters in front of me... Suddenly my car went "phoom!" and my front wind shield just shattered, just crumbled. So of course, I punched a hole in it to see where I was going, got my car to the side. So that's it. What could have happened? Either something has dropped from the top, but there is nothing. Did a car in front kick up a stone? But the truck is 200 meters in front of me. So I thought it over. The only thing unusual are the idols in my trunk.
1:09:43 Benjamin Cheah: Definitely. I've got instances where I've also hit my screen. They weren't shattered because the glass is designed not to shatter.
1:09:51 Philip Heng: That's right.
1:09:52 Benjamin Cheah: It probably just caused a little crack. Glasses of cars are actually tamper-proof. So you said that the whole front glass just became like a frosted glass.
1:10:03 Philip Heng: That's right. So I had to punch a hole through. And that's not the only time. Another time I was supposed to speak in Jurong and I was going down Clementi Road near where Maju Road is, the army place. And suddenly my brakes gave away. I step and there's no effect, so I had to use my hand brakes and drove all the way to Jurong to speak. And I drove back also using my handbrake. But the next day I sent in to check, nothing wrong with my car.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:10:39 Philip Heng: So I realize there are spiritual, possibly spiritual interference with communication. Whenever I am on a case, I have to alert my wife because we don't hear each other completely and things sometimes can... We can have arguments because we don't hear each other properly. So, just like what the Bible says, "Satan goes to and fro upon the Earth and he's called the prince of the power of the air," Ephesians, Chapter 6. So he interferes with communication.
1:11:21 Benjamin Cheah: You said that you couldn't communicate with your wife?
1:11:23 Philip Heng: Not properly.
1:11:24 Benjamin Cheah: You are talking about face-to-face or over a phone?
1:11:27 Philip Heng: Face-to-face and also over the phone, yes, it just gives rise to misunderstandings. And one day I was on a case and that day, my wife said, "Oh darling, before you go to the case I need to stop at two shops along the way." And I said, "Fine, I need to see them at 12:30 at IMH." "Okay". So early in the morning, before nine, I tell my wife that. So plenty of time to stop at two shops before going to IMH. My wife says, "I'm going to the bank to get some money and mail some letters."
1:12:08 Philip Heng: So, first thing that happened was I waited and waited. Finally I said, she came back kind of late. I said, "Darling, what happened?" She said, "Oh I'm sorry, but the lady at the office was so talkative today. Talked to me a lot and the mailing officer also." "So you came by late." So I said, "Never mind. I'm on a case, so let's pray." So we went to the first stop in Tanglin Road. So after that we were going to pass CK Tang. So I said to my wife, "Darling, do you still want to stop?" Because the time is getting quite late." So I said... She's right beside me, I said, "Darling, do you still wanna to stop?" And she said, in Chinese, 要.什么不要 In Teochew It means, "Sure, why not?" But what I heard was just 不, no. So when I heard no, I was so happy, I said, "Okay I'll just go straight down to ? Road and straight down to...
1:13:16 Philip Heng: But the next moment, she yelled at me, "I said, stop!" Huh? So I jumped on my brakes, I said, "What happened?" "You Chinese cannot understand Chinese. I said, 要.什么不要." I said, "Darling, I only heard mine." So then she becomes very angry, which is not her normal self. So she scolds me not only for not stopping, but also being Chinese and don't understand Chinese. That was very embarrassing. Alright. So of course, I jam on breaks, reverse my car and drove into CK Tang in those days.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:14:00 Philip Heng: Well, normally I will go shopping with my wife because we don't have that much time together. So I'll go with her, but again I wasn't in the mood. So I let her down, let her go up into CK Tang first while I parked the car. Then I came back to the front of CK Tang, three big arm chairs, so I sat down there and waited for her. And I tell you, the most frightful thoughts came to my head. Here as I was sitting, a little bit upset of course, then the thought comes. "Why don't you just catch hold of her head and twist it off. And then throw her head onto the floor and stomp on it. And then rub it into the ground." "Excuse me, that's my wife." What kind of thoughts? These are not my thoughts. So I said, "In Jesus' name, I resist you, go away." Pop! Disappeared. Next moment, my wife comes down the tall staircase. I got up and went to meet her. That's my wife. Where did those thoughts come from? Got into the car, I went to my next appointment.
1:15:22 Philip Heng: So along the way when everything was more calm, I said, "Darling, let's re-enact that scene again. When you finished at the first shop and you were going into second shop, I asked you, do you still wanna stop at CK Tang? What did you say?" She said, "What did I say?" I said, "Sure 要.什么不要. And then what did you hear?" So I realized, interference with our communication. We couldn't hear each other completely, properly, and so we had a misunderstanding.
1:15:55 Benjamin Cheah: So you're talking about obsession than oppression? Obsession is more like level of the mind. I guess it affects both Christians and non-Christians.
1:16:03 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:16:04 Benjamin Cheah: It guess it affected you?
1:16:05 Philip Heng: Yes, it affected me.
1:16:08 Benjamin Cheah: And oppression becomes... The activity becomes a bit more physical.
1:16:13 Philip Heng: More physical.
1:16:14 Benjamin Cheah: Pain.
1:16:15 Philip Heng: Pain.
1:16:16 Benjamin Cheah: Inanimate objects start to give problems.
1:16:20 Philip Heng: Okay. The people like that... With me, they're praying with me. They feel somebody is breaking their arm. They feel that the flesh on the arm is jumping. They feel that eyelids are jumping when there's nobody touching it. That kind of thing.
1:16:36 Benjamin Cheah: We should be able to...
1:16:36 Philip Heng: It's physical... Something to do with the physical body...
1:16:41 Benjamin Cheah: And probably also like unfortunate events keep happening in succession. A car...
1:16:47 Philip Heng: Possible.
1:16:47 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah, it's like, you know that something is trying to move certain events in a certain way. And it affects also Christians and non-Christians. I guess we're gonna come down to your last one, which is possession.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed
· Can a Christian be possessed
1:16:59 Philip Heng: Yeah, this possession thing is exactly what the Bible talks about. See, the Bible shows us that the spirit world is a different dimension. So just as we talk about receiving Jesus Christ as our personal saviour to come into our life and stay in us. So the Bible tells us as many as received Him, to them gave He, the power or the authority to become the sons of God. So, actually we can receive God into our lives, into our physical bodies to stay inside us, to be rested in us, and to take charge, and take control of us. Supernaturally... The same is true of the underworld... Of the demonic world. In other words, the demonic world, an evil spirit can come into a place, come into a person. Yeah, we talk about haunted houses and haunted things. I mean I can tell you stories. Some of the cases that I've dealt with, they're quite... This man's son actually ran off with somebody else's wife. So I think they were taking revenge. So the next thing that happened was one night, Mister... Maybe I don't use their name?
1:18:31 Benjamin Cheah: Hmm.
1:18:31 Philip Heng: Yeah. Mr. X, felt his bed was shaking. So...
1:18:41 Benjamin Cheah: Mr. X is the person who eloped with the wife?
1:18:45 Philip Heng: It was his son that eloped with the wife.
1:18:47 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
1:18:47 Philip Heng: So Mr. X is the father.
1:18:50 Benjamin Cheah: Is feeling it?
1:18:51 Philip Heng: Is feeling it.
1:18:51 Benjamin Cheah: Alright.
1:18:52 Philip Heng: Okay. So Mr. X, the father was lying in bed one night, I think it was past midnight. So at that time, they were reclaiming the sea at Pasir Panjang. So Mr. X was staying right opposite the seaside. So he thought maybe it's the trucks that were moving down the road with all the land with the earth to fill the sea. But this is midnight. So, this happened a few nights in a row. So Mr. X got very agitated. But he was an idolater, so he pleaded. He said, "Whoever you are, please identify yourself. Tell me what you really want, and I'll go to the temple and fulfill everything." So he pleaded. It did not stop. So Mr. X is quite a bad-tempered guy. So he took an axe and he chopped off his bed. He bought a new bed, but the bed still continued to shake. So he really did not know what to do.
1:20:07 Philip Heng: Then, he went to the Siamese temple and he got the monks. Three monks came to the house, sat in his house, and he told his story. Suddenly upstairs, two levels, there was a shriek and the three monks, "phsss", scooted out of the house. So Mr. X said, "Hey, what happened? "Hey, didn't you hear the sound upstairs? It's so frightening." "Yeah but we thought we'd call you to come and protect us, you are the first guys to scoot out first." "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing we can do. It's very serious up there." So Mr. X really did not know what to do. He went to get Indian mediums, Bomohs, Malay mediums, no help. So one day, he was going to the temple again for help, met one of my church members. So my church member said, "Hey Mr. X, where are you going? Why you look so sad?" So he said, "I have this kind of problem with my house, bed shaking and all that kind of stuff, and hearing voices upstairs, ashtrays start to shake by themselves. Fans coming on by themselves, so very spooky."
1:21:35 Philip Heng: So my young man said, "You need help. I'll call Pastor Heng. Pastor Heng can come and pray." So I went. So I told him, I said, "Okay if you want, only Jesus can, I'm only just telling you what the master wants to do. So if you will come to Jesus Christ, get rid of all your idols." So, thank God, he had tried everything until he could not try... He tried Indians and Malays, and temples and Siamese and... So, we brought a big truck, load up with all his... All his idols, and gods and went to the church. We burned them up and destroyed them. So we began to pray then. Prayed for that family to be delivered. So bit by bit, the Lord is able to deliver. It is only as people trust the Lord, then the Lord delivers completely.
1:22:33 Benjamin Cheah: I think what you describe was possession of his house or possession of a bed.
1:22:37 Philip Heng: Okay.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed
· Can a Christian be possessed
1:22:38 Benjamin Cheah: How about possession of a human?
1:22:39 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, yeah. Because when the son was possessed, the son beat the father. The son would beat the father. Okay, those who are possessed by evil spirits, it's like that lady I told you about, with cuts, she's so strong. There was a time, she would get a knife and came in to my office to attack me. But thank God, one of my lady workers slammed the door on her hand and she dropped the knife. And another time she grabbed a pair of scissors, and suddenly you are shocked and the whole thing went nearly over my back and just touched my shirt and that's it, but never penetrated. I'm always protected by God's grace. So far I've not been physically hurt by any attack, and I've been attacked with knives, with scissors, and we had an Indian guy... Oh, he was so serious. His wife came to get help. He came along too, but halfway through he walked out, and he yelled for his wife to get out of the church. Wife was slow in coming, so I went out to meet him.
1:24:00 Philip Heng: You know the road divider. We have all these blocks of cement which is about 18 inches or two feet wide and about 12 inches and about eight inches deep. I don't know how he can pluck out one piece with a fixed metal studs. And he held a block of cement. I think it's pretty heavy. But he came towards me and he said, "You come any closer, I'm going to push this in your face." And I am wearing spectacles, but I looked him straight in the eyes, I say, "In Jesus' name, I resist you." And he turned around, turned away. Then he comes back again and said, "You come any closer, I'm going to push this in your face." Now each time, I was look him straight in the eyes and say "In Jesus' name, I resist you" and he turned away. And finally, he said, "If you don't let my wife come out, I'm going to throw this on your motorcar." Alright. That was a problem.
1:24:54 Philip Heng: So the wife came out. So when the wife came out, we were right beside the pillar. Next thing, he put his hand under the wife's throat and raised her right up the pillar until her feet was off the ground. And she said, "I'm dying, I'm dying! I'm dying." And the next moment, he let go. "Oh darling, what's happened? Oh darling! Oh I'm sorry! I'm sorry!" By that time, the poor wife was already a heap on the... So I instructed my two workers carry him up into the sanctuary and then we prayed. And my prayer was very simple. I said, "Lord you know exactly what's wrong with her. In Jesus' name... " Well, this woman she got up and she spoke really well, not dead, is demonic.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed ?
· Can a Christian be possessed
1:25:47 Benjamin Cheah: And when you say the person is under possession?
1:25:51 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:25:52 Benjamin Cheah: So the demon spirit is in the person...
1:25:54 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:25:55 Benjamin Cheah: Controlling the...
1:25:55 Philip Heng: Controlling the person to do things that are superhuman.
1:25:59 Benjamin Cheah: What happens to the person's own
spirit? Is it just like...
1:26:02 Philip Heng: This person's own spirit is subjugated and is underneath.
1:26:09 Benjamin Cheah: Are they still aware? Actually, when you speak to people who have been possessed...
1:26:14 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:26:14 Benjamin Cheah: How do they describe the feeling the moment of possession. Do they say anything?
1:26:19 Philip Heng: They can't remember.
1:26:21 Benjamin Cheah: They can't remember.
1:26:22 Philip Heng: It is completely taken over. It's completely taken over. You see, one of the first cases I had, was this old lady. We were having a church camp in Pasir Panjang. And this lady was staying in Chwee Chian Road. And suddenly somebody called and said, "Pastor, so and so's mother is not well." So as a pastor, I went. I went with two of my young men. So we went to Chwee Chian Road, down some steps into... At least two floors down into the valley. So when I got into the house, this lady was pounding away on the table, had been doing it for two whole hours. So when I went in with my two young men, I said, "Let's sing." So we sang. "There is power, power, wonder working power in the blood of the Lamb." And she kept on pounding away. Then we began to pray. She kept on pounding away. So we say, "Jesus is Lord!" And she said in Hokkien, "I'm not afraid of your Jesus. 不怕耶稣" . So, "Jesus is the only Lord!" "Not afraid of Jesus."
1:27:39 Benjamin Cheah: And you said there were two voices in her?
1:27:42 Philip Heng: No, one voice.
1:27:43 Benjamin Cheah: One voice.
1:27:43 Philip Heng: She spoke. She spoke.
1:27:44 Benjamin Cheah: It's like two persons? "Jesus is Lord."
1:27:46 Philip Heng: I said that. I said. I'm the one who said, I said, "Jesus is Lord!" She said, "I'm not scared of your Jesus."
1:27:52 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
1:27:53 Philip Heng: "Jesus is the only Lord." "I'm not scared of your Jesus." So we talked, talked, talked. And I read scriptures. She was still belligerent, pounding away. Finally she switched to Hainanese, which I couldn't understand. None of us could understand. So I told my two boys, "Why don't you go and get an interpreter?" "But pastor, it is near midnight? How to go and get interpreter, who shall we get?" So finally, we said, "We'll go and get her son." Because the son was away from home. So I said, "You go and get." But the two young men said." "Pastor you drive a car, you can go faster." So I hated to leave my two young men. They were only 15 and 16 years old. But they said, "Pastor we're not scared. We'll do what you did. Sing songs of the blood of Jesus, pray, and read the Bible, and keep the enemy at bay till you come back." So with great effort, I went on my way to where the son was staying in Jalan Lempeng.
1:29:04 Philip Heng: In those days it was the country-style... Not like now. So by the time I came back, "Hey, I found my two young men by the roadside." "What happened?" "Oh, we told everybody only Jesus can deliver, you know? So after you left, one of the neighbours came and said, "I think the mother is very tired now and needs a drink. So this lady brought a drink of water for her and pastor you know when she drank, drank, drank and then she's fresh. She was normal." "Oh." "And we looked a little bit funny because we told everybody only Jesus will deliver."
1:29:49 Philip Heng: Yeah. So I said, "Okay well, we'll pray, this thing will happen again and we try before round two. So a few weeks later, again, the call came. So-and-so's mother is not well. So okay, this time I was with a senior pastor, Reverend Tow. So nice to have a senior pastor. I went with him, we went on the steps. There she was again, banging away. And the pastor said, "Let us pray." So she subsided, kept quiet, and after the pastor finished praying, she looked quite okay. So we left. But I was told later after we left, again she started to... She was not delivered.
1:30:38 Philip Heng: So I told my team, "Wait for round three." Sure enough, round three came. And so, in round three, when the call came, I went. So this time, the spirit communicated. So, "Why are you attacking this girl?" "Because she is selling her house in China, in Hainan." "Oh". So I said to the family, "You have a house in Hainan?" "Yeah, but nobody is staying there!" "What do you mean nobody is staying there? We are staying there!" These are haunting spirits, you see. They are staying there.
1:31:30 Philip Heng: So, "If you sell the house, we got no place to go, we'll kill this lady." So I told her family, "Don't be afraid, Jesus will deliver, set your mother free. You trust in Jesus." Then the neighbour came. The neighbour said, "Your mother is tired, give her a drink of water." So, I saw with my eyes when she drank the water, she's fresh. "Oh Pastor Heng! What are you doing here?" Well, I said, "I was told you are not well, so I came to pray for you." "Oh, I was not well and you came to pray... Thank you, thank you." That means she's not aware. "Thank you, thank you. Oh thank you, I was not well, huh?" "Yeah." Then the next moment, she saw my other two team. "What? What are you doing here?" "Yeah, we heard you are not well, so I came with Pastor Heng and we've been here also for the last two hours."
1:32:38 Philip Heng: "Oh you came also with Pastor... Thank you, thank you... Oh then, James you are here also?" "Yeah, we heard... We were with Pastor Heng and we heard you are not well, so we came." "Oh you came. Thank you, thank you very much." Two whole hours we were there. Not cognisant. So that is possession. So it's the tremendous change of personality. It's the total...
1:33:10 Benjamin Cheah: Do these people... Are they aware that they're possessed? Even after the incident?
1:33:16 Philip Heng: Usually, no. Their whole personality is taken over. It's like they have no power.
1:33:22 Benjamin Cheah: It's like they have missing time?
1:33:24 Philip Heng: It's like missing time for them, yeah. That is demon possession.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed
· Can a Christian be possessed ?
1:33:27 Benjamin Cheah: Okay. This is one question a lot of Christians ask. Since we Christians have the Holy Spirit in us, can we be possessed?
1:33:37 Philip Heng: No, the Christians cannot be possessed.
1:33:39 Benjamin Cheah: Can these people not reach the third level of demonic.
1:33:41 Philip Heng: They would never reach the third level. I've not come across any case. So 1 John, Chapter 4 is very clear, Verse 4: "Ye are of God little children and have overcome them, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." So, no Christian that I know... At first, we thought some of them were Christian, I mean, one or the other cases I had. But we found out no, he never received Christ.
1:34:10 Philip Heng: When you never receive Christ, spirit can take possession. But once you receive Christ, evil spirit cannot go in. At most the spirit, will try to control you from outside, about the past. This is important because when Christians don't get rid of their idols and things like that. This young man received Christ, and then 2:00 AM he called me. First what happened was he was sleeping and he felt someone throttling and choking him. But I've taught my members when they feel unusual spiritual attack, pray "In Jesus Name... And In Jesus' name, resist." And the thing will disappear, so the thing disappeared.
1:35:01 Philip Heng: So he thought, "Maybe I'm not sleeping properly." After a while, the spirit came and sat on the right shoulder. So, "In Jesus' Name, I resist you." And the thing disappeared. So he said [ "Maybe I'll sleep the other way." So he slept. So the thing came back and sat on the left shoulder. So, "In Jesus' name, I resist you" and it disappeared. So next moment, he heard footstep outside of the house. And the next moment, the windows started... Bang, bang, bang... And the sister-in-law also heard it. So that's when he called me 2:00 AM.
1:35:40 Philip Heng: So, 2:00 AM I prayed with him. I sang, "There is Power in the Blood." I prayed with him and then I said, "Anthony, I think, you should check up. You became a Christian. What were you before?" "Well, a Buddhist." I said, "Have you gotten rid of all the idols and things related to Buddhist worship?" He said, "Yes, as far as I know." I said, "If you have renounced and removed, there should not be any disturbance whatever. But the fact that you're being disturbed shows me that there's something probably not removed." I said, "You go and check. So I'll pray for you." So 2:00 AM, he goes in search the... I pray. He is in Toa Payoh, I'm on this side. Then about 4 o'clock, he calls up. "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! I found my gold Buddha amongst my clothes. And one of my singlets had been chopped with the monkey God was still in my possession."
1:36:45 Philip Heng: I see here it's very clear now, Bible tells us in Deuteronomy 18: "Don't keep anything to do with the other side." So here it's very clear. Yeah? Deuteronomy, Chapter 18. Sorry, Deuteronomy, Chapter 8. Yeah. "The graven images of the gods... ", Verse 25. Chapter 7 sorry. Chapter 7, Deuteronomy 7:25: "The graven images of the gods will burn with fire. Don't desire the silver or the gold on them. Don't take it unto you or you become snared. And it's an abomination to the Lord, your God." And you don't bring an abomination into the house as you be a cursed thing like it. But you will utterly detest it. Utterly abhor it for it is a cursed thing, according to the Bible.
1:37:43 Philip Heng: So I said, "You must remove it." I said normally the Bible tells us we will put it through the fire and remove it. But since you are on Toa Payoh, third floor, I said, "You just wrap in paper and then put in to the rubbish chute." So, thank God. So that night we went to the house to have a prayer meeting, 45 of us, and he was telling us what happened. He said, well, he felt God calling him into the full-time ministry, but he was resisting. And that's when this thing all comes upon him, because he's not completely cut off from the other side. You cannot be citizen of two sides. Not on enemy's side and Jesus' side. In other words, he still had possession of idols and he was trying to follow Jesus. There will be rebuttal.
1:38:41 Benjamin Cheah: So the other side, the demonic side, knew that he wanted to...
1:38:44 Philip Heng: Serve the Lord.
1:38:45 Benjamin Cheah: Serve the Lord and then trying to prevent him.
1:38:47 Philip Heng: That's right.
1:38:48 Benjamin Cheah: They're going through all the idols and the images.
1:38:52 Philip Heng: Well, I think you see...
1:38:54 Benjamin Cheah: But the presence of it allows them to oppress him.
1:38:58 Philip Heng: Yeah. I think the enemy probably wants to be severed from his relationship, but since he has the idols in their possession, they are very uncomfortable. In other words, the Christian must remove whatever previous religious objects he had, either idols or chains or anything from the previous religion that is not Christian.
1:39:33 Benjamin Cheah: Would you say, even things like photos of Jesus...
1:39:36 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:39:37 Benjamin Cheah: People do drawings. Would that be considered idols as well?
1:39:39 Philip Heng: Okay. I have...
1:39:41 Benjamin Cheah: Those are definitely not Jesus. We know that. It's like Roman Catholic, they have photos.
1:39:46 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:39:47 Benjamin Cheah: They have images of Jesus and saints. Would that be considered idols as well?
1:39:51 Philip Heng: I have quite a long list of things that... I realise we are in a very sensitive area in being in our multi-racial and multi-cultural Singapore. But in my ministry, I go strictly by the Bible where the Bible talks about removing the other side. So, this is not the only case, I had other cases.
1:40:16 Philip Heng: We had one chap, army boy. He was from Malaysia. He came to Singapore. He ended up not far from my church in Jurong. He had the Gospel. He believed. So he prayed very strongly for parents' conversion. Parents were very idolatrous. So, while he was praying for their conversion, the sister who was equally idolatrous as their parents prayed for his reconversion into Buddhism. So you can imagine the spiritual conflict. So one day, he's at work as a soldier typing, he had high fever and he collapsed. So he was sent home, stayed at home and did not come to church prayer meeting. So I assumed that when he doesn't come, he must be on guard duty because he's so regular. But after the prayer meeting, one of the friends said, "Oh, Daniel collapsed today at work." "He did?" I said, "Let's go visit." So we went to the house in his bedroom, he was so weak and sick. So, "Let's pray."
1:41:30 Philip Heng: So I started praying. I said, "Daniel, what happened?" He said, "I don't know. Today, I had high fever. I did everything to cause myself to perspire. It did not work. I drank this. I drank that. And so I collapsed." So I said, "Have you removed everything of your previous religious worship?" He said, "Yes, as far as I know." I said, "Why don't we pray." So as I prayed, I said, "I sense there's still something that you have not removed." So he said, "Oh, you're right. I have a gold Buddha in the bank." "In the bank?" I said. "What else?" "Well, the gold Buddha and the chain that I used to wear." "Alright, anything else?" "No." "Alright will you renounce?" So, "In Jesus' name, I promise to give it up and renounce it." Next moment, he perspired, fever down, perfectly okay. He walked out of the door and...
1:42:44 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
1:42:44 Philip Heng: What were we talking about?
1:42:46 Benjamin Cheah: We were talking about the young man who had a golden idol. I think we finished that.
1:42:54 Philip Heng: Okay. So...
1:42:56 Benjamin Cheah: Alright.
1:42:57 Philip Heng: After he confessed that he had a gold Buddha in the bank...
1:43:02 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah, the fever left him, he sweat...
1:43:03 Philip Heng: The fever left him, he sweat, and he was perfectly normal. He walked out of the door, his cousin was so stunned, because his cousin saw him sickly and weak the whole day, but the moment after we prayed, he walked us out the door. And after that the cousin got converted. Anyhow, the next day he called me again. He said, "I feel down again." I said, "What happened? Did you get rid of the Buddha?" He said, "Yeah. But what do I do with the chain?" I said, "Well, the Bible is very clear, you remove the idol plus whatever is connected with the idol." So he agreed to get rid of the chain and he was perfectly well. Now, there were other cases where you couldn't look at it medically.
1:43:53 Philip Heng: This young man one day, whatever he ate, whatever he drank, he vomited out, ended up in hospital. And the doctors checked, checked, checked, couldn't find anything wrong physically. So they were going to do a lumbar puncture to find out if there's anything else they can track down.
1:44:13 Benjamin Cheah: Alright.
1:44:14 Philip Heng: So in the meantime, they call for me, I went to the home. Family had become Christian, father, mother, all the... Of the eight siblings, seven became Christians. He was number two son, quite big, strong, drives lorry, and was a delivery person. He doesn't feel the need of God. So, I prayed for him. As I prayed, I said, "The word 'adoption' comes to my mind. Are you adopted?" "No, no, no, no, I'm a real child, not adopted," I said, "Okay". So, no further clue, waited for the mother to come. So when the mother came, I said, "As I prayed for your son, the word 'adoption' comes to my mind." She said, "No, no, no, no, this is my real son, not adopted."
1:45:08 Philip Heng: I said, "Okay, but why does the word 'adoption' comes to my mind?" "Oh, when we were in China, my neighbour had no son. And this, my second son, was adopted to him on the understanding that when he passes away, my son, who is adopted to him, will do the funeral rights, as a non-Christian rights." Oh, so I said, "Well, this is not acceptable because it is participating in a non-Christian type of ritual." So the mother said, "The sin is mine." So she confessed and said "This is done without his knowledge as a kid, so I renounce it, I reject it." And the young man was so impressed, he decided to receive Christ. And he walked out, perfectly well. Okay, another one was even more interesting. Same thing.
1:46:18 Philip Heng: He was serving the Lord actively in the Church, but one day, whatever he ate whatever he drank, he vomited out. Went to the hospital, they checked him all over, couldn't find anything wrong. Also were going to do a lumbar puncture. So he called for me. So I went there, I prayed. As I prayed I said, "John, the word 'adoption' comes to my mind." "No, no pastor, I'm not adopted. I'm real. I'm my mother's son." I said, "Okay, but why does the word 'adoption'?" So later it was revealed, mother was originally a Buddhist, became very sick, became a Roman Catholic. And when John was born, the mother adopted him to the Virgin Mary. I had never heard of that before, but adopted him to the Virgin Mary. So I said, "John, now that you've become a Christian, it's not tenable." There's nowhere in the Bible, we say of anybody being adopted to the Virgin Mary. So, that also was renounced, and later on what happened was mother-in-law and daughter-in-law had a quarrel.
1:47:47 Philip Heng: And during the quarrel, the mother-in-law said, "All because of you, you brought my son away from the Roman Catholic Church. I had adopted him to the Virgin Mary, but when he married you, you took him away." But of course, he had given up his Roman Catholic beliefs and become a Christian, but that part was not renounced. So when that was renounced of course, it was without his knowledge that he was adopted. He was perfectly well. So even when they're adopted, or they've got some idol and they're not aware of it, it still has effect on the person physically.
1:48:31 Benjamin Cheah: And they never knew.
1:48:32 Philip Heng: Never knew.
1:48:33 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah. Okay. So we understand that if you see someone who's possessed, it is quite a clear indication...
1:48:43 Philip Heng: It's a clear indication...
1:48:44 Benjamin Cheah: That person's not a Christian.
1:48:45 Philip Heng: Yes, is not Christian.
1:48:48 Benjamin Cheah: Let's talk about the aftermath of a possession, I want to quote something from Jesus. It says here from Luke 11:24-26, "When an evil spirit comes off a man, he goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it." Then it says, "I will return to the house I left. When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first." So I'd like to ask a few things. Does the person have to accept Christ to be rid off the demon? Let's say it's a non-Christian and then, let's say, you've delivered the person; do you see that it becomes a recurrent event?
1:49:40 Philip Heng: Okay.
1:49:40 Benjamin Cheah: I think it talks about a recurrent event. It keeps coming back again and again.
1:49:44 Philip Heng: Yes. When a person is demon-possessed, it's obvious he's not a Christian, and therefore, the devil can go in. But normally, we will tell the person, you see a person who's demonized is not demonized all the time. It's very interesting. They go through seasons because they're being controlled by the medium who sends the spirit. So there are low seasons when they're quite normal. So there's a time you tell the Gospel and then they can make up their mind. They want to receive Christ. So once they receive Christ, he'd come out in Jesus' name, spirit goes out and that person is perfectly well. One of the most baffling cases was a Bible college student. This guy was studying in New Zealand, final year. And for some strange reason, he wanted to come to Singapore to have some practical experience. So, he was actually invited by Mount Carmel Church. But he came to stay next door, in Calvary because we had quarters.
1:51:05 Philip Heng: He was a good singer. So Galilee had carol service at departmental store in town. So he became a soloist and he sang, and everybody liked the way he sang. We came back and that evening when we came back to his living quarters next door, there was a girl that was mentally and spiritually not well. So when she looked at this fellow, she said, "You got a devil in you." And he got frightened, so I defended him, commanded the girl, "In Jesus' name, behave yourself." And everything looked okay. So the next morning, we came together. I tried to reassure him, so prayed with him. So I said, "Why don't we have a time of prayer? So, let's start off by a confession." Oh, he had a long list of things to confess. So, the next moment, he spoke in tongues.
1:52:24 Philip Heng: So when he was finished, I said, "Where did you learn to speak in tongues?" He said, "I got it from a church," a Church of Christ in Australia. I said, "Have you ever got your tongue tested? He said, "No, no. I just know it's from God." Okay. So, the next day, we have another time of prayer. Another long list of sins. I thought, "This is very unusual."
1:52:55 Benjamin Cheah: These were very serious sins?
1:52:56 Philip Heng: Yeah. I mean, you claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you speak in tongues. I mean the Bible says, "Holy Spirit fills holy vessels." But why are you having so many sins to confess? Again, he spoke in tongues. So I said, "Where did you get the tongue?" So he assured me, he got it from a church. I was not familiar with the Church of Christ at that time. But anyway, at that time it happened, I said we must test. So when he knelt down, every time he confessed, "In Jesus' name, you tell me, who you are?" He would leapfrog 12 feet, 15 feet across the carpet and he would land on his chin, he would land on his head as he was helpless, not with a hand to break the fall, but just go like that and he would end up in a heap. And I would command him, "In Jesus' name, you wake up." And he wakes up. I mean humanly speaking, if someone were to throw you 15 feet across the carpet, you would break your neck. But to make a long story short, apparently when he was born in England, he was not expected to live. So I think the mother called the nurse and the nurse put some spell on him, and... So later all this came out, and he had to be delivered. And after he was delivered, he couldn't speak in tongues.
1:54:36 Benjamin Cheah: Do you think he... Was he possessed?
1:54:38 Philip Heng: Yeah. Not a Christian.
1:54:41 Benjamin Cheah: But still going to seminary school...
1:54:47 Philip Heng: Yeah, so I found out that the Church of Christ doesn't believe the Christ like we believe.
Article created on 18 Feb 2015
Interview done on 2 Jan 2014
by Dr Benjamin Cheah
Contents
Mental Illness 0:40:26
- Differentiating mental / emotional illness from demons 0:48:47
Demons attack 1:01:46
- Obsession 1:03:17
- Oppression 1:04:38
- Communication breakdown 1:10:39
- Thought insertions 1:14:00
Demon possession
- Possession of inanimate objects 1:16:59
- Possession of humans 1:22:38
- What is like being possessed ?1:25:47
- Can a Christian be possessed ? 1:33:27
Mental Illness
· Differentiating mental / emotional illness from demons
0:40:26 Benjamin Cheah: I have dealt with patients who are depressed and who are schizophrenic. Schizophrenic is, now is a medical condition. Previously, Bible calls it madness. We're not sure what Nebuchadnezzar had. Remember, Nebuchadnezzar was a little mad for a while, but I've dealt with many, many patients who had schizophrenia and depressed. Especially worse are the schizophrenics, they frequently hear voices talking to them. Voices to tell them that they are bad people. They are bad things. All their friends are looking down on them and they will imagine the television, maybe a newscaster talking to them. Have you heard of these? Telling them things...
0:41:13 Philip Heng: Yes.
0:41:13 Benjamin Cheah: And somehow, all these things are bad stuff. And then they have strange visions. So I thought why don't they have good visions? Why don't they have voices telling them to study hard? Or voices telling them that they should work hard and provide for the family? But frequently, it's always bad stuff. And depressed people are always having bad thoughts in them. I usually ask my patients who I'm treating for major depression, which is again now a clinical condition... It's strange how many things medicine has turned into a disease. Yes, it's very unfortunate. Just like homosexuality. At one time, we turned it into a disease and now we say it's normal. It's very unfortunate.
0:42:02 Benjamin Cheah: But depression and... For depressed people, if you could ask them, "Why do you have these depressed thoughts?" They'll say, "I've no idea. I don't want to think about them, but these thoughts just come to me." And I ask them, "Are these thoughts just appear in your mind?" And you try to unthink them, to force unthink, but they're not able to, and in times of debt and stress, they keep thinking about it and about it, and it goes in a very vicious cycle. I think, again, this is one way... Or maybe in some of these depressed people, they are also spiritually sensitive. And it's one way they get tormented by demons. One way, not all of them but some. I'm not talking about the heavy-handed like demon possession, but some... Many people have depression. Statistics show up to about one quarter of people in their lifetime will suffer from medical, clinical depression, 1% of population will suffer from schizophrenia, and... It is very sad. You do counsel patients? I mean, counsel church members or non-Christians with mental diseases and how do you find or explain these phenomena?
0:43:20 Philip Heng: My understanding of people with mental sickness and all that is like... I think all of us are born with certain weaknesses. Some are physically weak, some are mentally weak, some are socially not very friendly. And the Bible says we are all spiritually dead to begin with. So there are people... Just like some people who are handicapped physically, there are some people who are visually handicapped, there are some people who are hearing impaired. There are some people with weak stomachs. So it's a physical aspect that is weak. Similarly, I think there are some people who are born with certain mental susceptibilities and weaknesses. So they get afraid very easily or they're shy or they... So on. So I see people in the congregation that have fixated ideas. Some fall for a certain... Some girls fall for certain men. Some men fall for certain girls. So they will tell you it's beyond their control. They'll tell you it's beyond their control. Well, I suppose it's a weakness just like people who have a hernia. And that part of the body has a weakness. So I see that some of these mental weaknesses are compounded with spiritual problems.
0:44:58 Benjamin Cheah: That's what I find too as well.
0:44:59 Philip Heng: Yes. Because a lot of families when their loved one is mentally, to them substandard, they'll bring to the... Either the medium, yeah, spirit medium. And then they will begin to do chanting to bring forth spiritual health. And without realizing, a lot of times the evil spirits come into the picture. So I had a guy, yeah. Actually, he was normal. He went to be a NS boy soldier, perfectly normal. And one of his buddies died. So he got shocked by death. Then when he came out, another friend of his died. He also... So double shock. So the next thing he knew was, he gets up in the morning, he shakes his head. And from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM, he just... So the poor mother now having to trail a 18-year-old boy, 19-year-old, boy and so brings to the temple. So the temple says, "Oh, his spirit has left him and gone for a walk. So I can get him back." "Oh good, please help." Of course, the medium wants... "How much are you prepared to pay?" "Oh, we are poor people. We cannot afford." "Well, okay. If you are too poor then there's no way I can help you."
0:46:28 Philip Heng: But the medium is able to influence the boy, and the boy goes to the bank and pulls out his own money to give to the medium. So the family, of course, is very agitated. "We are not prepared to pay that kind of money, but our son is giving the medium the money." So what has happened is to begin with, the young man was shocked by death twice and while he's not so stable, gone to the medium, the medium puts a spell that controls him and he is bound by that spirit medium. So finally the family calls for help. So I go to the home. So I tell them, "If you want, Jesus can help." Because I've seen with my own eyes. I've prayed for people and the Lord delivers them. If it's something spiritual, it's instantaneous. Because Bible tells us in 1 John 4, "Greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world." So the spirit of Jesus is more powerful than any angelic spirit or demonic spirit. So demons are angels that have fallen and gone to the wrong side.
0:47:41 Philip Heng: So when a person becomes a Christian and prays for Jesus to come in, the evil spirit goes out. And that person is instantaneously delivered. Actually, in my ministry, dealing with demonic cases is, it's a joy. It's a sense of victory because you get... It's clear-cut, clear-cut. Whereas in mental cases and others, especially in psychological type of situations, it's a lot of ding-dong. Husband and wife relationship, now you be nice, don't disturb your wife, don't bully her, wife, be nice and submissive to your husband. Those are some of the hardest cases because the person's mind is still keen and alert. Whereas in a demonic case, when his personality is taken over by the evil spirit and the spirit is cast out, that person is instantly delivered.
0:48:45 Benjamin Cheah: So Reverend Heng...
0:48:46 Philip Heng: Yeah.
Mental Illness
· Differentiating mental / emotional illness from demons
0:48:47 Benjamin Cheah: How can we or how do you differentiate a mental or emotional issue from, let's say, a demon problem?
0:48:54 Philip Heng: Alright. If there is demonic situation, there's always a way in. The devil cannot jump into a person's life at will. It is the person going to seek that evil spirit's cooperation and help. So alright, here's this lady. She's trying to have a son. No, she's got three daughters and trying to get a son. So go and get help from mediums, yeah. And then people start to put charms on her, yeah. So I get a call at 2:00 AM, alright. So I try to talk to her over the phone. The next time she calls, again 2:00 AM. I say, okay, talk to her. That night again, I said, "I must come and see you. You must come, I wanna see you. I don't wanna treat just over the phone." So when she comes, she's dressed to kill, low neckline, high hemline. And she apparently had tried to cut her wrist. So anyway, she comes for Bible study, so it was okay. Then one night, we say, "Come and join us for prayer." She can't take it. So on the way out, she just flicks her hand at the louvres in the window. And three panes just break, just like that. She just flicks her hand and three panes break.
0:50:28 Philip Heng: So we realized that it's not human power anymore; it's superhuman power. And after breaking that, she sprints home, runs home very fast. So I go to the house and I tell the husband. I said, "This lady is not normal. I think you better come to the church. We'll pray for her." So husband was very willing, came with the three daughters. So we put her right in the sanctuary, in front of the Holy Communion table. We put her on the wooden platform where you... And you put your mattress on top. And she sleeps there with her three daughters and her husband. And we got two young men, soldier boys, to be sentries. So we told her husband, "Since your wife tends to get up and sprint out of the church, you might need to tie her." So we put string at four corners, tie her hands, so that the four limbs are tied. She can turn enough in the sleep, but cannot reach and untie. So the one hand, one corner, other hand, the other corner. One leg, one corner; the other leg, so four corners, four limbs, alright? So let her go to sleep with her husband, with her daughters, with her two sentries. Then about 2, 3 o'clock, she starts to vibrate out of control.
0:52:12 Philip Heng: So the guards called me. I said, "In Jesus' name, you stop it." Then she wakes up as if from a trance. I say, "What's the matter?" and she said, "Pastor, my panties are off". "Your panties are off?" I woke the husband and said, "Sir, we are honest people. We are not up to any monkey business. We didn't touch your wife in any way. But she is now telling us her panties are off." She's still tied, the four limbs, so we untie her hand. And then she reaches down to her bottom and she pulls out her panties. Of course, all of us are flabbergasted. How do you take off your panties when your legs are tied and apart? So I instruct my two lady workers to bring the patient to the toilet and put on the panties again, and put on a pair of trousers over the panties. And then, after that, I again put her back to sleep. About 4 o'clock, again, she's vibrating, out of control.
0:53:38 Philip Heng: So the guards called me. "In Jesus' name, wake up. Alright, what is it this time?" Then looking so helplessly, with her hands still tied and apart, "Pastor, my panties are off again." So untie her hand and sure enough she reaches behind her and she pulls off her panties. We are baffled, your legs are tied and apart, under your skirt, with the pants on, how do your panties come off? So, we reassured her husband, we don't do anything that is improper and immoral. So, this goes on through the whole day to the afternoon. Oh, yes, we let her go to toilet, we feed her and all that. But when she's not doing the necessary, we tie her up. And 2 o'clock in the afternoon my team is at the back, with the two sentries beside her, she goes out into a trance again. So call for me, "In Jesus' name, wake up, what is it this time?" "My bra is off, and hooked and flung 15 feet under the pews."
0:55:13 Philip Heng: Excuse me! How do you do that with your two hands tied and your two legs tied? How do you take off your bra? Who's taking it off? So, that is what we call demonic stuff. It is super human, it's not human at all. So, as the days went by... There are times I prayed with her. Times... Okay, I pray with her, and then she starts to bleed on her forehead. Nobody touching her, nobody within range. She starts to bleed right across her forehead, cuts appear across the forehead. So, I said I better take her to the doctor. So, I took her the doctor in West Coast, not a Christian doctor. So the doctor treats her, puts a plaster on top, "Thank you very much, doctor. Bye-bye." We walk to the car, phiss! Cuts again, and she's bleeding right across the plaster, all the dressing. And back to the doctor, "Excuse me doctor. I don't know what happened, but she's bleeding again." "I think she's got a knife or a pin or sharp fingernails, but never mind I'll fix her." So, he dressed her up again and this time the doctor cleverly sews the dressing into the skin of her forehead. "Thank you, doctor. Bye-bye." We go to the car, phiss! She's bleeding again. This time the cuts are underneath the plaster, "How do you do that?" Well, thank God, the doctor got converted after that.
0:57:21 Benjamin Cheah: Very soon after that?
0:57:22 Philip Heng: Yeah, because how to explain? I am trying to tell him there are demonic forces and only Jesus can deliver. One day, I took this lady with my team, thank God for our team. I got sometimes six, eight, 10, 12, who take turns to help look after her, male, female, all. So, one day we took her for a drive. Alright, before that drive, IMH called up, wanted to see her. So that day I drove her alone. So she's beside me, all strapped up in the car, and I'm going down Adam Road, Lornie Road towards MacRitchie Reservoir on the way to IMH Woodbridge. And suddenly after passing Sime Road, I realize that I'm driving so close to the curb, I'm on the left-most lane. And the thought came to my mind, "What if she pulls my steering?" So at that moment, I shifted my car to the next lane to the right. And only when I shifted to the right, she pulled my steering. And that was near where Andrew Road... The other end of Andrew Road. So, there was a temple down at the bottom of the hill in those days. So, when she grabbed my steering my car nearly flipped, but I was able to struggle and the car came to a halt. If I were on extreme left, I think the car would have hit the curb and probably flipped over. But I thank God, the thought that came to my mind, move my car before she pulls the steering.
0:59:13 Benjamin Cheah: I guess there was the Spirit prompting
0:59:15 Philip Heng: I believe so, I mean there's no way I could know what she was going to do. But the thought that came into my mind must have been put there by God to alert me what was going to happen. And another similar situation, on another day I had the team with me and we were in an open truck. One of the boys borrowed the truck from his father. So, the boy was driving, young man, I was beside him in the caboose, in the cab in front, and the rest of them were sitting in the back. And this lady was holding her daughter, just one year plus, and... With back towards me. So as we were going down the road beside the beach, I turned around just to have a look, and I saw her with her baby in her arms.
1:00:09 Philip Heng: And a thought came to my mind "I hope she doesn't throw her baby." This woman, she stood up and she threw her baby towards the end of the truck. I was so horrified. But thank God, God provides everything, because the last guy at the very end of the truck was Albert Lee who's a rugby player in Raffles Institution. So he went out for the ball, and only this time it's the baby. So he grabbed the baby in mid-air The truck was doing 40 KM and he just grabbed hold of the baby and saved her. Came to a halt, and of course, she's not herself, she's not herself. So that's the difference between demonic and mental.
1:00:54 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, well, you've described the thorough supernatural activities. I suppose, in the Bible, you talk about people who are demon possessed with supernatural strength.
1:01:03 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:01:04 Benjamin Cheah: And some kind of supernatural knowledge. That kind of foreknowledge.
1:01:07 Philip Heng: Yes, and abnormal behaviour, very abnormal.
1:01:11 Benjamin Cheah: These are the obvious cases. Let me ask you something that is again more theological. Is there a difference between oppression and possession? Can actually someone be possessed? Like we are body, spirit and soul? Can the demon, which is old spirit, inhibit the same body, or the demon just oppresses it and sends thoughts into the person? What actually happens? Is there an explanation?
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:01:46 Philip Heng: Yes, it's not just inhibit but inhabit. [chuckle] Yeah, not just inhibit. Bible talks about demonization. But we see three levels of oppression, three levels of attack. Obsession of the mind, oppression of the body, and possession of the total personality. So, obsession is the devil inflicting the mind, attacking the mind, causing doubts, causing fears, causing confusion and frustration.
1:02:33 Benjamin Cheah: And let's talk about temptations.
1:02:36 Philip Heng: Temptations...
1:02:37 Benjamin Cheah: In such temptations like insert the idea of love for money, love for sexual stuff, illicit sex, unnatural sex, pornography. Inserting temptations into the mind. That level of obsessions?
1:02:55 Philip Heng: That one I cannot say for sure. Because I think the natural man, without evil spirits' interference, some of them already have a highly sex... Some of them have an overdose. But some, by taking liquor, by taking other intoxicants...
1:03:16 Benjamin Cheah: It aggravates the situation.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:03:17 Philip Heng: Yeah. There are some that are man-made. Those that are sexually, spiritually, yes, I think there are. I mean, this woman talks about having sex with evil spirits and all that kind of thing. There were occasions when she was having sex with her husband and she goes out of control. Yes. It is very unusual. But being obsessed, mind being controlled by evil spirits, yes. This person goes into the bathroom, comes out, doesn't know what she is doing, goes in and comes out, goes in comes out. What's happening? "Somebody far down, three miles away, can see me and knows what I'm about to do, so I'm very cautious." I mean, there's nobody in real, but three miles away that's what he thinks of somebody seeing him, that kind of thing. Obsession of the mind, fear of going to a certain place, thoughts that people are reading his mind, thoughts that people are watching him and his movement. To ask, is it a mental problem?
1:04:34 Benjamin Cheah: Yes. It fits a mental diagnosis yes.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:04:38 Philip Heng: Correct. So there are these people who tell us that. So... But we know that there are some spiritual interference where they're not delivered yet. The people like that. Then we have oppression. Oppression we normally classify as physical affliction. "Oh, something's breaking my arm. Ouch! Ouch!" Hey, there's nobody touching that fellow, but he's... Somebody's breaking his arm. So things like that kind. Actually there are some things which are very hard to explain. When I deal with demonic cases my car can misbehave. Like I'm coming home from Gilstead Road Life Church to my house in Pasir Panjang. When I get into my car, suddenly my red light on the dashboard comes on, it is charging. When you start the engine the red light is supposed to disappear, but it doesn't. The red light keeps on.
1:05:53 Philip Heng: There are times when you want to start, it won't start, you want it to start, it won't start. The red light comes on, but it won't start. So I tell my co-worker, I said, "I'm gonna pray to start the car." So I say, "Oh Lord Jesus, please remove whatever is hindering the car from starting. In Jesus' name, I break the power of whatever spirit is causing it not to start. And in Jesus' name, amen." And my car starts. But then when I start driving, the car goes off. It just will not run smoothly. And I drive it all the way, seven-and-a-half miles back to Pasir Panjang. The next day I send the car in, nothing wrong with the car.
1:06:38 Philip Heng: So I realized in spiritual cases, it affects my car. It affects my telephone. I tell this guy, "Hey, I'm going to call you when I'm ready." And he said, "I've been waiting at the telephone, I never heard your call." Another occasion, I was going from Jurong to Dr. Tow house. And, alright, I was on a case and the moment I came on Toh Tuck Road onto the Pan Island, not far from Glory Church at Pei Hwa School, there's a temple there, too.
1:07:21 Benjamin Cheah: It's still there.
1:07:22 Philip Heng: Yes, I think so. I just couldn't believe it when I got on to the highway and as I started to accelerate, suddenly go "poom", there's an explosion in my car front. And then my engine on my car, started to stall and comes to a halt. So I got it by the roadside and I tried to start, it won't start. So I call the AA, Automobile Association. So they came, opened up the bonnet and they said, "Hmm, your spark plug has come off the engine block with the hose still attached, with the wire still attached." So I said, "What's the cause of it?" He said, "I've never seen anything like that. Because your spark plug has to be screwed in so many rounds, how does it jump out? And your cable is still intact. I've never seen anything like that." So put it back, okay. Car is perfectly okay.
1:08:32 Philip Heng: On another occasion I went to remove idols from a house. I put them in the trunk of my car. I went around Bukit Timah Circus at Yeo Hiap Seng at that time, and then came onto Pan Island where the Ngee Ann Technical...
1:08:53 Benjamin Cheah: Ngee Ann Poly.
1:08:53 Philip Heng: Ngee Ann Poly, yeah. So, and I got onto the highway, no car in front of me. There probably is a truck about 200 meters in front of me... Suddenly my car went "phoom!" and my front wind shield just shattered, just crumbled. So of course, I punched a hole in it to see where I was going, got my car to the side. So that's it. What could have happened? Either something has dropped from the top, but there is nothing. Did a car in front kick up a stone? But the truck is 200 meters in front of me. So I thought it over. The only thing unusual are the idols in my trunk.
1:09:43 Benjamin Cheah: Definitely. I've got instances where I've also hit my screen. They weren't shattered because the glass is designed not to shatter.
1:09:51 Philip Heng: That's right.
1:09:52 Benjamin Cheah: It probably just caused a little crack. Glasses of cars are actually tamper-proof. So you said that the whole front glass just became like a frosted glass.
1:10:03 Philip Heng: That's right. So I had to punch a hole through. And that's not the only time. Another time I was supposed to speak in Jurong and I was going down Clementi Road near where Maju Road is, the army place. And suddenly my brakes gave away. I step and there's no effect, so I had to use my hand brakes and drove all the way to Jurong to speak. And I drove back also using my handbrake. But the next day I sent in to check, nothing wrong with my car.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:10:39 Philip Heng: So I realize there are spiritual, possibly spiritual interference with communication. Whenever I am on a case, I have to alert my wife because we don't hear each other completely and things sometimes can... We can have arguments because we don't hear each other properly. So, just like what the Bible says, "Satan goes to and fro upon the Earth and he's called the prince of the power of the air," Ephesians, Chapter 6. So he interferes with communication.
1:11:21 Benjamin Cheah: You said that you couldn't communicate with your wife?
1:11:23 Philip Heng: Not properly.
1:11:24 Benjamin Cheah: You are talking about face-to-face or over a phone?
1:11:27 Philip Heng: Face-to-face and also over the phone, yes, it just gives rise to misunderstandings. And one day I was on a case and that day, my wife said, "Oh darling, before you go to the case I need to stop at two shops along the way." And I said, "Fine, I need to see them at 12:30 at IMH." "Okay". So early in the morning, before nine, I tell my wife that. So plenty of time to stop at two shops before going to IMH. My wife says, "I'm going to the bank to get some money and mail some letters."
1:12:08 Philip Heng: So, first thing that happened was I waited and waited. Finally I said, she came back kind of late. I said, "Darling, what happened?" She said, "Oh I'm sorry, but the lady at the office was so talkative today. Talked to me a lot and the mailing officer also." "So you came by late." So I said, "Never mind. I'm on a case, so let's pray." So we went to the first stop in Tanglin Road. So after that we were going to pass CK Tang. So I said to my wife, "Darling, do you still want to stop?" Because the time is getting quite late." So I said... She's right beside me, I said, "Darling, do you still wanna to stop?" And she said, in Chinese, 要.什么不要 In Teochew It means, "Sure, why not?" But what I heard was just 不, no. So when I heard no, I was so happy, I said, "Okay I'll just go straight down to ? Road and straight down to...
1:13:16 Philip Heng: But the next moment, she yelled at me, "I said, stop!" Huh? So I jumped on my brakes, I said, "What happened?" "You Chinese cannot understand Chinese. I said, 要.什么不要." I said, "Darling, I only heard mine." So then she becomes very angry, which is not her normal self. So she scolds me not only for not stopping, but also being Chinese and don't understand Chinese. That was very embarrassing. Alright. So of course, I jam on breaks, reverse my car and drove into CK Tang in those days.
Demons attack
· Obsession
· Oppression
· Communication breakdown
· Thought insertions
1:14:00 Philip Heng: Well, normally I will go shopping with my wife because we don't have that much time together. So I'll go with her, but again I wasn't in the mood. So I let her down, let her go up into CK Tang first while I parked the car. Then I came back to the front of CK Tang, three big arm chairs, so I sat down there and waited for her. And I tell you, the most frightful thoughts came to my head. Here as I was sitting, a little bit upset of course, then the thought comes. "Why don't you just catch hold of her head and twist it off. And then throw her head onto the floor and stomp on it. And then rub it into the ground." "Excuse me, that's my wife." What kind of thoughts? These are not my thoughts. So I said, "In Jesus' name, I resist you, go away." Pop! Disappeared. Next moment, my wife comes down the tall staircase. I got up and went to meet her. That's my wife. Where did those thoughts come from? Got into the car, I went to my next appointment.
1:15:22 Philip Heng: So along the way when everything was more calm, I said, "Darling, let's re-enact that scene again. When you finished at the first shop and you were going into second shop, I asked you, do you still wanna stop at CK Tang? What did you say?" She said, "What did I say?" I said, "Sure 要.什么不要. And then what did you hear?" So I realized, interference with our communication. We couldn't hear each other completely, properly, and so we had a misunderstanding.
1:15:55 Benjamin Cheah: So you're talking about obsession than oppression? Obsession is more like level of the mind. I guess it affects both Christians and non-Christians.
1:16:03 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:16:04 Benjamin Cheah: It guess it affected you?
1:16:05 Philip Heng: Yes, it affected me.
1:16:08 Benjamin Cheah: And oppression becomes... The activity becomes a bit more physical.
1:16:13 Philip Heng: More physical.
1:16:14 Benjamin Cheah: Pain.
1:16:15 Philip Heng: Pain.
1:16:16 Benjamin Cheah: Inanimate objects start to give problems.
1:16:20 Philip Heng: Okay. The people like that... With me, they're praying with me. They feel somebody is breaking their arm. They feel that the flesh on the arm is jumping. They feel that eyelids are jumping when there's nobody touching it. That kind of thing.
1:16:36 Benjamin Cheah: We should be able to...
1:16:36 Philip Heng: It's physical... Something to do with the physical body...
1:16:41 Benjamin Cheah: And probably also like unfortunate events keep happening in succession. A car...
1:16:47 Philip Heng: Possible.
1:16:47 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah, it's like, you know that something is trying to move certain events in a certain way. And it affects also Christians and non-Christians. I guess we're gonna come down to your last one, which is possession.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed
· Can a Christian be possessed
1:16:59 Philip Heng: Yeah, this possession thing is exactly what the Bible talks about. See, the Bible shows us that the spirit world is a different dimension. So just as we talk about receiving Jesus Christ as our personal saviour to come into our life and stay in us. So the Bible tells us as many as received Him, to them gave He, the power or the authority to become the sons of God. So, actually we can receive God into our lives, into our physical bodies to stay inside us, to be rested in us, and to take charge, and take control of us. Supernaturally... The same is true of the underworld... Of the demonic world. In other words, the demonic world, an evil spirit can come into a place, come into a person. Yeah, we talk about haunted houses and haunted things. I mean I can tell you stories. Some of the cases that I've dealt with, they're quite... This man's son actually ran off with somebody else's wife. So I think they were taking revenge. So the next thing that happened was one night, Mister... Maybe I don't use their name?
1:18:31 Benjamin Cheah: Hmm.
1:18:31 Philip Heng: Yeah. Mr. X, felt his bed was shaking. So...
1:18:41 Benjamin Cheah: Mr. X is the person who eloped with the wife?
1:18:45 Philip Heng: It was his son that eloped with the wife.
1:18:47 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
1:18:47 Philip Heng: So Mr. X is the father.
1:18:50 Benjamin Cheah: Is feeling it?
1:18:51 Philip Heng: Is feeling it.
1:18:51 Benjamin Cheah: Alright.
1:18:52 Philip Heng: Okay. So Mr. X, the father was lying in bed one night, I think it was past midnight. So at that time, they were reclaiming the sea at Pasir Panjang. So Mr. X was staying right opposite the seaside. So he thought maybe it's the trucks that were moving down the road with all the land with the earth to fill the sea. But this is midnight. So, this happened a few nights in a row. So Mr. X got very agitated. But he was an idolater, so he pleaded. He said, "Whoever you are, please identify yourself. Tell me what you really want, and I'll go to the temple and fulfill everything." So he pleaded. It did not stop. So Mr. X is quite a bad-tempered guy. So he took an axe and he chopped off his bed. He bought a new bed, but the bed still continued to shake. So he really did not know what to do.
1:20:07 Philip Heng: Then, he went to the Siamese temple and he got the monks. Three monks came to the house, sat in his house, and he told his story. Suddenly upstairs, two levels, there was a shriek and the three monks, "phsss", scooted out of the house. So Mr. X said, "Hey, what happened? "Hey, didn't you hear the sound upstairs? It's so frightening." "Yeah but we thought we'd call you to come and protect us, you are the first guys to scoot out first." "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing we can do. It's very serious up there." So Mr. X really did not know what to do. He went to get Indian mediums, Bomohs, Malay mediums, no help. So one day, he was going to the temple again for help, met one of my church members. So my church member said, "Hey Mr. X, where are you going? Why you look so sad?" So he said, "I have this kind of problem with my house, bed shaking and all that kind of stuff, and hearing voices upstairs, ashtrays start to shake by themselves. Fans coming on by themselves, so very spooky."
1:21:35 Philip Heng: So my young man said, "You need help. I'll call Pastor Heng. Pastor Heng can come and pray." So I went. So I told him, I said, "Okay if you want, only Jesus can, I'm only just telling you what the master wants to do. So if you will come to Jesus Christ, get rid of all your idols." So, thank God, he had tried everything until he could not try... He tried Indians and Malays, and temples and Siamese and... So, we brought a big truck, load up with all his... All his idols, and gods and went to the church. We burned them up and destroyed them. So we began to pray then. Prayed for that family to be delivered. So bit by bit, the Lord is able to deliver. It is only as people trust the Lord, then the Lord delivers completely.
1:22:33 Benjamin Cheah: I think what you describe was possession of his house or possession of a bed.
1:22:37 Philip Heng: Okay.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed
· Can a Christian be possessed
1:22:38 Benjamin Cheah: How about possession of a human?
1:22:39 Benjamin Cheah: Okay, yeah. Because when the son was possessed, the son beat the father. The son would beat the father. Okay, those who are possessed by evil spirits, it's like that lady I told you about, with cuts, she's so strong. There was a time, she would get a knife and came in to my office to attack me. But thank God, one of my lady workers slammed the door on her hand and she dropped the knife. And another time she grabbed a pair of scissors, and suddenly you are shocked and the whole thing went nearly over my back and just touched my shirt and that's it, but never penetrated. I'm always protected by God's grace. So far I've not been physically hurt by any attack, and I've been attacked with knives, with scissors, and we had an Indian guy... Oh, he was so serious. His wife came to get help. He came along too, but halfway through he walked out, and he yelled for his wife to get out of the church. Wife was slow in coming, so I went out to meet him.
1:24:00 Philip Heng: You know the road divider. We have all these blocks of cement which is about 18 inches or two feet wide and about 12 inches and about eight inches deep. I don't know how he can pluck out one piece with a fixed metal studs. And he held a block of cement. I think it's pretty heavy. But he came towards me and he said, "You come any closer, I'm going to push this in your face." And I am wearing spectacles, but I looked him straight in the eyes, I say, "In Jesus' name, I resist you." And he turned around, turned away. Then he comes back again and said, "You come any closer, I'm going to push this in your face." Now each time, I was look him straight in the eyes and say "In Jesus' name, I resist you" and he turned away. And finally, he said, "If you don't let my wife come out, I'm going to throw this on your motorcar." Alright. That was a problem.
1:24:54 Philip Heng: So the wife came out. So when the wife came out, we were right beside the pillar. Next thing, he put his hand under the wife's throat and raised her right up the pillar until her feet was off the ground. And she said, "I'm dying, I'm dying! I'm dying." And the next moment, he let go. "Oh darling, what's happened? Oh darling! Oh I'm sorry! I'm sorry!" By that time, the poor wife was already a heap on the... So I instructed my two workers carry him up into the sanctuary and then we prayed. And my prayer was very simple. I said, "Lord you know exactly what's wrong with her. In Jesus' name... " Well, this woman she got up and she spoke really well, not dead, is demonic.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed ?
· Can a Christian be possessed
1:25:47 Benjamin Cheah: And when you say the person is under possession?
1:25:51 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:25:52 Benjamin Cheah: So the demon spirit is in the person...
1:25:54 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:25:55 Benjamin Cheah: Controlling the...
1:25:55 Philip Heng: Controlling the person to do things that are superhuman.
1:25:59 Benjamin Cheah: What happens to the person's own
spirit? Is it just like...
1:26:02 Philip Heng: This person's own spirit is subjugated and is underneath.
1:26:09 Benjamin Cheah: Are they still aware? Actually, when you speak to people who have been possessed...
1:26:14 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:26:14 Benjamin Cheah: How do they describe the feeling the moment of possession. Do they say anything?
1:26:19 Philip Heng: They can't remember.
1:26:21 Benjamin Cheah: They can't remember.
1:26:22 Philip Heng: It is completely taken over. It's completely taken over. You see, one of the first cases I had, was this old lady. We were having a church camp in Pasir Panjang. And this lady was staying in Chwee Chian Road. And suddenly somebody called and said, "Pastor, so and so's mother is not well." So as a pastor, I went. I went with two of my young men. So we went to Chwee Chian Road, down some steps into... At least two floors down into the valley. So when I got into the house, this lady was pounding away on the table, had been doing it for two whole hours. So when I went in with my two young men, I said, "Let's sing." So we sang. "There is power, power, wonder working power in the blood of the Lamb." And she kept on pounding away. Then we began to pray. She kept on pounding away. So we say, "Jesus is Lord!" And she said in Hokkien, "I'm not afraid of your Jesus. 不怕耶稣" . So, "Jesus is the only Lord!" "Not afraid of Jesus."
1:27:39 Benjamin Cheah: And you said there were two voices in her?
1:27:42 Philip Heng: No, one voice.
1:27:43 Benjamin Cheah: One voice.
1:27:43 Philip Heng: She spoke. She spoke.
1:27:44 Benjamin Cheah: It's like two persons? "Jesus is Lord."
1:27:46 Philip Heng: I said that. I said. I'm the one who said, I said, "Jesus is Lord!" She said, "I'm not scared of your Jesus."
1:27:52 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
1:27:53 Philip Heng: "Jesus is the only Lord." "I'm not scared of your Jesus." So we talked, talked, talked. And I read scriptures. She was still belligerent, pounding away. Finally she switched to Hainanese, which I couldn't understand. None of us could understand. So I told my two boys, "Why don't you go and get an interpreter?" "But pastor, it is near midnight? How to go and get interpreter, who shall we get?" So finally, we said, "We'll go and get her son." Because the son was away from home. So I said, "You go and get." But the two young men said." "Pastor you drive a car, you can go faster." So I hated to leave my two young men. They were only 15 and 16 years old. But they said, "Pastor we're not scared. We'll do what you did. Sing songs of the blood of Jesus, pray, and read the Bible, and keep the enemy at bay till you come back." So with great effort, I went on my way to where the son was staying in Jalan Lempeng.
1:29:04 Philip Heng: In those days it was the country-style... Not like now. So by the time I came back, "Hey, I found my two young men by the roadside." "What happened?" "Oh, we told everybody only Jesus can deliver, you know? So after you left, one of the neighbours came and said, "I think the mother is very tired now and needs a drink. So this lady brought a drink of water for her and pastor you know when she drank, drank, drank and then she's fresh. She was normal." "Oh." "And we looked a little bit funny because we told everybody only Jesus will deliver."
1:29:49 Philip Heng: Yeah. So I said, "Okay well, we'll pray, this thing will happen again and we try before round two. So a few weeks later, again, the call came. So-and-so's mother is not well. So okay, this time I was with a senior pastor, Reverend Tow. So nice to have a senior pastor. I went with him, we went on the steps. There she was again, banging away. And the pastor said, "Let us pray." So she subsided, kept quiet, and after the pastor finished praying, she looked quite okay. So we left. But I was told later after we left, again she started to... She was not delivered.
1:30:38 Philip Heng: So I told my team, "Wait for round three." Sure enough, round three came. And so, in round three, when the call came, I went. So this time, the spirit communicated. So, "Why are you attacking this girl?" "Because she is selling her house in China, in Hainan." "Oh". So I said to the family, "You have a house in Hainan?" "Yeah, but nobody is staying there!" "What do you mean nobody is staying there? We are staying there!" These are haunting spirits, you see. They are staying there.
1:31:30 Philip Heng: So, "If you sell the house, we got no place to go, we'll kill this lady." So I told her family, "Don't be afraid, Jesus will deliver, set your mother free. You trust in Jesus." Then the neighbour came. The neighbour said, "Your mother is tired, give her a drink of water." So, I saw with my eyes when she drank the water, she's fresh. "Oh Pastor Heng! What are you doing here?" Well, I said, "I was told you are not well, so I came to pray for you." "Oh, I was not well and you came to pray... Thank you, thank you." That means she's not aware. "Thank you, thank you. Oh thank you, I was not well, huh?" "Yeah." Then the next moment, she saw my other two team. "What? What are you doing here?" "Yeah, we heard you are not well, so I came with Pastor Heng and we've been here also for the last two hours."
1:32:38 Philip Heng: "Oh you came also with Pastor... Thank you, thank you... Oh then, James you are here also?" "Yeah, we heard... We were with Pastor Heng and we heard you are not well, so we came." "Oh you came. Thank you, thank you very much." Two whole hours we were there. Not cognisant. So that is possession. So it's the tremendous change of personality. It's the total...
1:33:10 Benjamin Cheah: Do these people... Are they aware that they're possessed? Even after the incident?
1:33:16 Philip Heng: Usually, no. Their whole personality is taken over. It's like they have no power.
1:33:22 Benjamin Cheah: It's like they have missing time?
1:33:24 Philip Heng: It's like missing time for them, yeah. That is demon possession.
Demon possession
· Possession of inanimate objects
· Possession of humans
· What is like being possessed
· Can a Christian be possessed ?
1:33:27 Benjamin Cheah: Okay. This is one question a lot of Christians ask. Since we Christians have the Holy Spirit in us, can we be possessed?
1:33:37 Philip Heng: No, the Christians cannot be possessed.
1:33:39 Benjamin Cheah: Can these people not reach the third level of demonic.
1:33:41 Philip Heng: They would never reach the third level. I've not come across any case. So 1 John, Chapter 4 is very clear, Verse 4: "Ye are of God little children and have overcome them, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." So, no Christian that I know... At first, we thought some of them were Christian, I mean, one or the other cases I had. But we found out no, he never received Christ.
1:34:10 Philip Heng: When you never receive Christ, spirit can take possession. But once you receive Christ, evil spirit cannot go in. At most the spirit, will try to control you from outside, about the past. This is important because when Christians don't get rid of their idols and things like that. This young man received Christ, and then 2:00 AM he called me. First what happened was he was sleeping and he felt someone throttling and choking him. But I've taught my members when they feel unusual spiritual attack, pray "In Jesus Name... And In Jesus' name, resist." And the thing will disappear, so the thing disappeared.
1:35:01 Philip Heng: So he thought, "Maybe I'm not sleeping properly." After a while, the spirit came and sat on the right shoulder. So, "In Jesus' Name, I resist you." And the thing disappeared. So he said [ "Maybe I'll sleep the other way." So he slept. So the thing came back and sat on the left shoulder. So, "In Jesus' name, I resist you" and it disappeared. So next moment, he heard footstep outside of the house. And the next moment, the windows started... Bang, bang, bang... And the sister-in-law also heard it. So that's when he called me 2:00 AM.
1:35:40 Philip Heng: So, 2:00 AM I prayed with him. I sang, "There is Power in the Blood." I prayed with him and then I said, "Anthony, I think, you should check up. You became a Christian. What were you before?" "Well, a Buddhist." I said, "Have you gotten rid of all the idols and things related to Buddhist worship?" He said, "Yes, as far as I know." I said, "If you have renounced and removed, there should not be any disturbance whatever. But the fact that you're being disturbed shows me that there's something probably not removed." I said, "You go and check. So I'll pray for you." So 2:00 AM, he goes in search the... I pray. He is in Toa Payoh, I'm on this side. Then about 4 o'clock, he calls up. "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! I found my gold Buddha amongst my clothes. And one of my singlets had been chopped with the monkey God was still in my possession."
1:36:45 Philip Heng: I see here it's very clear now, Bible tells us in Deuteronomy 18: "Don't keep anything to do with the other side." So here it's very clear. Yeah? Deuteronomy, Chapter 18. Sorry, Deuteronomy, Chapter 8. Yeah. "The graven images of the gods... ", Verse 25. Chapter 7 sorry. Chapter 7, Deuteronomy 7:25: "The graven images of the gods will burn with fire. Don't desire the silver or the gold on them. Don't take it unto you or you become snared. And it's an abomination to the Lord, your God." And you don't bring an abomination into the house as you be a cursed thing like it. But you will utterly detest it. Utterly abhor it for it is a cursed thing, according to the Bible.
1:37:43 Philip Heng: So I said, "You must remove it." I said normally the Bible tells us we will put it through the fire and remove it. But since you are on Toa Payoh, third floor, I said, "You just wrap in paper and then put in to the rubbish chute." So, thank God. So that night we went to the house to have a prayer meeting, 45 of us, and he was telling us what happened. He said, well, he felt God calling him into the full-time ministry, but he was resisting. And that's when this thing all comes upon him, because he's not completely cut off from the other side. You cannot be citizen of two sides. Not on enemy's side and Jesus' side. In other words, he still had possession of idols and he was trying to follow Jesus. There will be rebuttal.
1:38:41 Benjamin Cheah: So the other side, the demonic side, knew that he wanted to...
1:38:44 Philip Heng: Serve the Lord.
1:38:45 Benjamin Cheah: Serve the Lord and then trying to prevent him.
1:38:47 Philip Heng: That's right.
1:38:48 Benjamin Cheah: They're going through all the idols and the images.
1:38:52 Philip Heng: Well, I think you see...
1:38:54 Benjamin Cheah: But the presence of it allows them to oppress him.
1:38:58 Philip Heng: Yeah. I think the enemy probably wants to be severed from his relationship, but since he has the idols in their possession, they are very uncomfortable. In other words, the Christian must remove whatever previous religious objects he had, either idols or chains or anything from the previous religion that is not Christian.
1:39:33 Benjamin Cheah: Would you say, even things like photos of Jesus...
1:39:36 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:39:37 Benjamin Cheah: People do drawings. Would that be considered idols as well?
1:39:39 Philip Heng: Okay. I have...
1:39:41 Benjamin Cheah: Those are definitely not Jesus. We know that. It's like Roman Catholic, they have photos.
1:39:46 Philip Heng: Yes.
1:39:47 Benjamin Cheah: They have images of Jesus and saints. Would that be considered idols as well?
1:39:51 Philip Heng: I have quite a long list of things that... I realise we are in a very sensitive area in being in our multi-racial and multi-cultural Singapore. But in my ministry, I go strictly by the Bible where the Bible talks about removing the other side. So, this is not the only case, I had other cases.
1:40:16 Philip Heng: We had one chap, army boy. He was from Malaysia. He came to Singapore. He ended up not far from my church in Jurong. He had the Gospel. He believed. So he prayed very strongly for parents' conversion. Parents were very idolatrous. So, while he was praying for their conversion, the sister who was equally idolatrous as their parents prayed for his reconversion into Buddhism. So you can imagine the spiritual conflict. So one day, he's at work as a soldier typing, he had high fever and he collapsed. So he was sent home, stayed at home and did not come to church prayer meeting. So I assumed that when he doesn't come, he must be on guard duty because he's so regular. But after the prayer meeting, one of the friends said, "Oh, Daniel collapsed today at work." "He did?" I said, "Let's go visit." So we went to the house in his bedroom, he was so weak and sick. So, "Let's pray."
1:41:30 Philip Heng: So I started praying. I said, "Daniel, what happened?" He said, "I don't know. Today, I had high fever. I did everything to cause myself to perspire. It did not work. I drank this. I drank that. And so I collapsed." So I said, "Have you removed everything of your previous religious worship?" He said, "Yes, as far as I know." I said, "Why don't we pray." So as I prayed, I said, "I sense there's still something that you have not removed." So he said, "Oh, you're right. I have a gold Buddha in the bank." "In the bank?" I said. "What else?" "Well, the gold Buddha and the chain that I used to wear." "Alright, anything else?" "No." "Alright will you renounce?" So, "In Jesus' name, I promise to give it up and renounce it." Next moment, he perspired, fever down, perfectly okay. He walked out of the door and...
1:42:44 Benjamin Cheah: Okay.
1:42:44 Philip Heng: What were we talking about?
1:42:46 Benjamin Cheah: We were talking about the young man who had a golden idol. I think we finished that.
1:42:54 Philip Heng: Okay. So...
1:42:56 Benjamin Cheah: Alright.
1:42:57 Philip Heng: After he confessed that he had a gold Buddha in the bank...
1:43:02 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah, the fever left him, he sweat...
1:43:03 Philip Heng: The fever left him, he sweat, and he was perfectly normal. He walked out of the door, his cousin was so stunned, because his cousin saw him sickly and weak the whole day, but the moment after we prayed, he walked us out the door. And after that the cousin got converted. Anyhow, the next day he called me again. He said, "I feel down again." I said, "What happened? Did you get rid of the Buddha?" He said, "Yeah. But what do I do with the chain?" I said, "Well, the Bible is very clear, you remove the idol plus whatever is connected with the idol." So he agreed to get rid of the chain and he was perfectly well. Now, there were other cases where you couldn't look at it medically.
1:43:53 Philip Heng: This young man one day, whatever he ate, whatever he drank, he vomited out, ended up in hospital. And the doctors checked, checked, checked, couldn't find anything wrong physically. So they were going to do a lumbar puncture to find out if there's anything else they can track down.
1:44:13 Benjamin Cheah: Alright.
1:44:14 Philip Heng: So in the meantime, they call for me, I went to the home. Family had become Christian, father, mother, all the... Of the eight siblings, seven became Christians. He was number two son, quite big, strong, drives lorry, and was a delivery person. He doesn't feel the need of God. So, I prayed for him. As I prayed, I said, "The word 'adoption' comes to my mind. Are you adopted?" "No, no, no, no, I'm a real child, not adopted," I said, "Okay". So, no further clue, waited for the mother to come. So when the mother came, I said, "As I prayed for your son, the word 'adoption' comes to my mind." She said, "No, no, no, no, this is my real son, not adopted."
1:45:08 Philip Heng: I said, "Okay, but why does the word 'adoption' comes to my mind?" "Oh, when we were in China, my neighbour had no son. And this, my second son, was adopted to him on the understanding that when he passes away, my son, who is adopted to him, will do the funeral rights, as a non-Christian rights." Oh, so I said, "Well, this is not acceptable because it is participating in a non-Christian type of ritual." So the mother said, "The sin is mine." So she confessed and said "This is done without his knowledge as a kid, so I renounce it, I reject it." And the young man was so impressed, he decided to receive Christ. And he walked out, perfectly well. Okay, another one was even more interesting. Same thing.
1:46:18 Philip Heng: He was serving the Lord actively in the Church, but one day, whatever he ate whatever he drank, he vomited out. Went to the hospital, they checked him all over, couldn't find anything wrong. Also were going to do a lumbar puncture. So he called for me. So I went there, I prayed. As I prayed I said, "John, the word 'adoption' comes to my mind." "No, no pastor, I'm not adopted. I'm real. I'm my mother's son." I said, "Okay, but why does the word 'adoption'?" So later it was revealed, mother was originally a Buddhist, became very sick, became a Roman Catholic. And when John was born, the mother adopted him to the Virgin Mary. I had never heard of that before, but adopted him to the Virgin Mary. So I said, "John, now that you've become a Christian, it's not tenable." There's nowhere in the Bible, we say of anybody being adopted to the Virgin Mary. So, that also was renounced, and later on what happened was mother-in-law and daughter-in-law had a quarrel.
1:47:47 Philip Heng: And during the quarrel, the mother-in-law said, "All because of you, you brought my son away from the Roman Catholic Church. I had adopted him to the Virgin Mary, but when he married you, you took him away." But of course, he had given up his Roman Catholic beliefs and become a Christian, but that part was not renounced. So when that was renounced of course, it was without his knowledge that he was adopted. He was perfectly well. So even when they're adopted, or they've got some idol and they're not aware of it, it still has effect on the person physically.
1:48:31 Benjamin Cheah: And they never knew.
1:48:32 Philip Heng: Never knew.
1:48:33 Benjamin Cheah: Yeah. Okay. So we understand that if you see someone who's possessed, it is quite a clear indication...
1:48:43 Philip Heng: It's a clear indication...
1:48:44 Benjamin Cheah: That person's not a Christian.
1:48:45 Philip Heng: Yes, is not Christian.
1:48:48 Benjamin Cheah: Let's talk about the aftermath of a possession, I want to quote something from Jesus. It says here from Luke 11:24-26, "When an evil spirit comes off a man, he goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it." Then it says, "I will return to the house I left. When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first." So I'd like to ask a few things. Does the person have to accept Christ to be rid off the demon? Let's say it's a non-Christian and then, let's say, you've delivered the person; do you see that it becomes a recurrent event?
1:49:40 Philip Heng: Okay.
1:49:40 Benjamin Cheah: I think it talks about a recurrent event. It keeps coming back again and again.
1:49:44 Philip Heng: Yes. When a person is demon-possessed, it's obvious he's not a Christian, and therefore, the devil can go in. But normally, we will tell the person, you see a person who's demonized is not demonized all the time. It's very interesting. They go through seasons because they're being controlled by the medium who sends the spirit. So there are low seasons when they're quite normal. So there's a time you tell the Gospel and then they can make up their mind. They want to receive Christ. So once they receive Christ, he'd come out in Jesus' name, spirit goes out and that person is perfectly well. One of the most baffling cases was a Bible college student. This guy was studying in New Zealand, final year. And for some strange reason, he wanted to come to Singapore to have some practical experience. So, he was actually invited by Mount Carmel Church. But he came to stay next door, in Calvary because we had quarters.
1:51:05 Philip Heng: He was a good singer. So Galilee had carol service at departmental store in town. So he became a soloist and he sang, and everybody liked the way he sang. We came back and that evening when we came back to his living quarters next door, there was a girl that was mentally and spiritually not well. So when she looked at this fellow, she said, "You got a devil in you." And he got frightened, so I defended him, commanded the girl, "In Jesus' name, behave yourself." And everything looked okay. So the next morning, we came together. I tried to reassure him, so prayed with him. So I said, "Why don't we have a time of prayer? So, let's start off by a confession." Oh, he had a long list of things to confess. So, the next moment, he spoke in tongues.
1:52:24 Philip Heng: So when he was finished, I said, "Where did you learn to speak in tongues?" He said, "I got it from a church," a Church of Christ in Australia. I said, "Have you ever got your tongue tested? He said, "No, no. I just know it's from God." Okay. So, the next day, we have another time of prayer. Another long list of sins. I thought, "This is very unusual."
1:52:55 Benjamin Cheah: These were very serious sins?
1:52:56 Philip Heng: Yeah. I mean, you claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you speak in tongues. I mean the Bible says, "Holy Spirit fills holy vessels." But why are you having so many sins to confess? Again, he spoke in tongues. So I said, "Where did you get the tongue?" So he assured me, he got it from a church. I was not familiar with the Church of Christ at that time. But anyway, at that time it happened, I said we must test. So when he knelt down, every time he confessed, "In Jesus' name, you tell me, who you are?" He would leapfrog 12 feet, 15 feet across the carpet and he would land on his chin, he would land on his head as he was helpless, not with a hand to break the fall, but just go like that and he would end up in a heap. And I would command him, "In Jesus' name, you wake up." And he wakes up. I mean humanly speaking, if someone were to throw you 15 feet across the carpet, you would break your neck. But to make a long story short, apparently when he was born in England, he was not expected to live. So I think the mother called the nurse and the nurse put some spell on him, and... So later all this came out, and he had to be delivered. And after he was delivered, he couldn't speak in tongues.
1:54:36 Benjamin Cheah: Do you think he... Was he possessed?
1:54:38 Philip Heng: Yeah. Not a Christian.
1:54:41 Benjamin Cheah: But still going to seminary school...
1:54:47 Philip Heng: Yeah, so I found out that the Church of Christ doesn't believe the Christ like we believe.
Article created on 18 Feb 2015
Interview done on 2 Jan 2014
by Dr Benjamin Cheah